Author: Lillie Proksch

Why Leaving is the Most Dangerous Time with Colette Martin

Jenna Mayne: Welcome to she is your neighbour, a show where we discuss the realities and complexities of domestic violence. This podcast is brought to you by Women’s Crisis Services of Waterloo Region, a charitable organization in Ontario, Canada. I’m your host, Jenna Main. Join me as we talk to different people each week to learn how domestic violence impacts people from all walks of life. She is your neighbour, and we all have a role to play in ending domestic violence.

This episode is called why Leaving is the most dangerous time with Collette. Martin Colette is a survivor of domestic violence. After a near fatal altercation with her ex boyfriend in 1997, Collette spent many years trying to process her experience. Now she is an advocate for survivors of domestic violence, as well as missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. In this episode of she is your neighbour, Collette talks about the red flags leading up to the night of the attack, her experience healing from trauma, and how she is using her story to help and inspire others.

This episode is part of an eight episode series called when violence escalates, which explores how violence can build, leading to severe incidents and death. This new series builds on season four, understanding femicide, where we explored what happens when domestic violence becomes lethal. Season five is all about the buildup. What does it mean when we say violence is increasing and escalating? Why does it happen? Who does it affect? How can we stop it? We hope you’ll tune in to find out the answers to all these questions and more. We will be releasing new episodes every other week, and we can’t wait to explore these topics with you.

I’m really excited to share today’s episode with you, which is all about Colette’s story. I first met Colette in the summer of 2023, and I immediately felt connected to her. I think a lot of people probably feel that way when they meet Colette. she has just such a great energy and warm personality, and there’s, something about her. When you meet her, you kind of feel like you’ve known her your whole life. I know I felt like that, and everyone on the team did, and our photographer Hilary did. there’s just something special about Colette. We first worked with her on our short documentary, which was released in the fall of 2023, and I was so excited when we got to have her back onto an episode of the podcast for this new series. Colette has survived something that not many people can say that they have survived. It was a very, very severe experience that she had, and I think it’s just. It’s really become part of who Colette is, it’s not just something that she has survived or experienced. It’s something that has really transformed her life and who she is as a person. It’s really become a big part of who she is and what she does now. and I just feel so grateful that I know Colette and so lucky that we’ve got to connect with her for the documentary and for the podcast, to hear her story and to learn from it. Before we get started, I’d like to note that the following episode includes a discussion of domestic violence and abuse and contains graphic content which may be distressing or traumatic to some listeners. Please take care of yourself, and don’t hesitate to ask for help if you need it.

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Jenna Mayne: Hi, Colette. thanks so much for being here today.

Colette Martin: How are you?

Jenna Mayne: Oh, I’m good. It’s so good to see you, and.

Colette Martin: I’m so happy to be here with you.

Jenna Mayne: Oh, I’m so happy you’re here. It’s been a little bit now since we’ve seen each other working on the documentary, but I know we’ve talked on the phone a few times since then, but it’s just nice to see your face, even though it’s across the screen. So today we’re going to be talking a little bit about your story. I know some of our listeners probably have heard a bit about your story in our short documentary, but for those who haven’t, I wondered if you could share a little bit about yourself and your story.

Colette Martin: Yes. My name is Colette Martin, and I’m from Basin and New Brunswick. I was almost murdered 26 years ago by my ex boyfriend. Took me 24 years or a little more to get up and share my story with others, to, help them heal while I’m healing myself and give them hope. So, 26 years ago, I was. Started 27 years ago. I started dating this guy and, fell right in love. Well, I thought it was love anyway. We dated for about, ten months altogether. Traveled everywhere. He played hockey, and that’s how I met him in my hometown. We traveled everywhere for about seven months for him to play hockey. And then, after seven months, I let him move in with me. And, that’s when I saw the real person. So, I knew I couldn’t live with him anymore, so I kicked him out of my house. And seven months later, he came back at night and tried to kill me.

Jenna Mayne: Thank you for sharing that, Colette. I wondered if you could share a little bit more about what happened that night, if you’re comfortable.

Colette Martin: Yeah, no problem. He, came. He called me that night to tell me he was coming to retrieve the rest of his things. And he would usually call, but he wouldn’t show up. But that night, I had an eerie feeling. And you know how they say, to listen to that little voice? And thank God I did. At 1140, he broke my door down. I was in a deep sleep. I came out of my bedroom, closed the door behind me because my son was sleeping in the bedroom. I looked up and saw him standing there. And he was standing there. He had no eyes. He had two black holes in his head. And he looked at me and said, tonight’s the night you’re going to die. And I looked down and I looked up again, and when I looked up again, I saw his eyes go straight to my knife drawer. So, I tried to get to the knife drawer before him, but I didn’t make it. He took the biggest knife out of the drawer, turned me around and slit my throat. And later on, I ran. He dragged me back. later on, he stabbed, me 37 times. I ran again, and this time, I made it to my parents house. he grabbed me and dragged me back to the end of the driveway, where I had to literally beg on my knees for my life. And I had to tell him that I still loved him and that I would never leave him. But I knew it was over. But I just. This is what I had to do to survive. He told me nobody else. If he couldn’t have me, nobody else would. So, I was very lucky my cousin was in the house because I had called her because I didn’t want any problems. And, I didn’t really know if he was coming or not. But thank God, I called my cousin. So while I was running, she stayed in the house, she took care of my son and was on the phone with the police. The second time I ran. When I got to my parents house, he dragged me to the end of the road. And, I looked up and I saw the police vehicle coming. I saw the lights, and I knew I was going to be okay. but what happened is that, he dropped the knife because I told him it was over and that he would. They would take him away. He dropped the knife, I grabbed it, and I ran towards the road. When the police got there, I was standing there with the knife in my hand, and he told the police that I had hurt him. And the police had no way of knowing because I had a towel around my neck to hide my neck from my little boy. And, so I was. Went in the police car for a few minutes until my sister and my cousin came out and told them what had happened. And it was more like a protective thing for me because they wanted to separate us. So they got him away from me. After my sister and my cousin talked to the police and told them what had really happened. then I got out of the car. He went in the police car. I went the ambulance, and, I was brought to the hospital.

Jenna Mayne: Thank you for sharing, Colette. I know you tell your story a lot, but I’m sure it’s still difficult sometimes to tell it, and it’s still difficult for me to hear it, even though I’ve heard it quite a few times now. It’s just awful. I just. I don’t even know how to react to what happened to you. But I’m just so glad that you’re still here with us today and you’re doing what you’re doing. So I just. I’m so grateful for you sharing with us and being here. For those who don’t know what happened next, can you explain? I know he was charged. I went to prison. Maybe you could share a little more about that.

Colette Martin: Yes. so after he was charged, and it happened really, really fast, I was really, really lucky. He went to jail right away. They held him there until trial. And on the 26th and 27, June of 1997 was the trial. We went to trial. of course, he pled not guilty. He didn’t want to say that he did anything wrong. He told the judge that my cousin had moved his hand, and that’s how he had stabbed me. So he lied throughout the whole trial. Anyway, he was found guilty for attempted murder and forcible confinement and break and enter, because what I didn’t share a while ago is that right before the police got there, he had hurt himself and then told me that he would take me away in his car and we could die together. so the police got there right in time, and I was so blessed and grateful that they got there, because I don’t know what I would have done. And, they saved my life. I get emotional when I talk about that all the time, because every time I share my story, every little bit. And I guess that’s what post traumatic stress disorder is. I don’t think you really ever get rid of it. I just found little tricks and little things to do to make me feel better. And by sharing my story, I give people hope, but I also heal at the same time. And that’s what the beauty is of it. So I often say how lucky I am and how beautiful this journey is, even though I’ve suffered a lot of trauma, I’ve witnessed so many miracles, and I’m still here today.

Jenna Mayne: Yeah.

Jenna Mayne: Call out you surviving. It truly is a miracle. And honestly, when I think of your story, it just hits home, because I think of, you know, even throughout 2023, all the women who have been killed by their intimate partner. We’ve heard so many stories in the news, and, you know, in 2023, there was over 170 women killed, and it’s just not okay. And you were one of the lucky ones who survived.

Colette Martin: Exactly.

Jenna Mayne: And I really. I know. I’ve heard you say it, and I truly believe it, that you survived to tell your story and to help people. And I really think you’re making a big difference, and not everyone gets to. And what you’re doing with this chance is just incredible. So thank you for the help.

Colette Martin: Thank you. Thank you.

Jenna Mayne: So now, I really appreciate you sharing it. I know you said it is difficult, and, it does help so many people. I know our listeners will be so inspired by your story. Something else I wanted to ask you was, this episode is part of our escalation series, so we’re talking about how violence escalates, and we really want to educate people about the warning signs. What are some of the red flags that maybe you didn’t see or people wouldn’t know if they don’t know about this? Right. So I’m wondering if you could take us back to before that night and even before the breakup, actually, and maybe tell us a little bit more about the relationship and some of the red flags that. That you now see looking back.

Colette Martin: Well, that’s it, right? Because I never saw any red flags because I was never educated in anything. Any, part of, intimate partner violence or domestic violence or, like, I didn’t know. Like, I thought that, you know, when he would call me 20 times a day, I thought he was calling because he loved me. And also, like, he was trying to isolate me from my family. And that was a big thing because he didn’t want any part of anybody else being part of my life. and that was impossible for me. I had a six year old boy that was, like, a lot. Like, he, tried to control what I ate, the way I exercised. But I. You know, again, when you’re young and you think this person loves you, I thought he was doing all of that because he wanted me to feel better or look better. You know what I mean? I should have known like, I should have known these things, but I didn’t see them because I was never educated. And I think that’s where I come in and I can help lot of people. Like, when I go into schools and universities and stuff, and I share my story, you could hear a pin drop. It’s unbelievable. Like, I’ve gotten message from young girls, you know, telling me how they feel less alone after they hear my story. Because you really think you’re alone. I thought I was alone for 24 years before I started doing all of this really big, like, I did share my story, quite a few times before all of this. But when I. I started sharing and I saw that people were listening and that I wasn’t alone, then I thought, oh, my God, I can do this.

Jenna Mayne: I’m so glad you are doing it, because it’s making a big difference. There’s a few things you said there that stuck out to me. You said you should have known. And, no, I don’t think you should have known. You didn’t know. That’s not your fault. You had no education about this. So, don’t, please don’t blame yourself. But that is why we’re doing this, right? And this is why your story is so powerful and you’re helping others. So I hope that others who are listening are starting to kind of get a sense of what these red flags are and what these signs are. Because sometimes, you know, what we’re taught to think of is love. It’s not love, right? It’s actually abuse, and it’s power and control and it’s not. Okay.

Colette Martin: That’s right. he also would, when we would argue, he would grab me and leave, like, bruises on my arms and stuff. You know, like, that’s when I let him move in with me. After I moved, after I let him move in with me, that’s when that stuff started. So one time he kicked me in the stomach really hard, and that was the beginning of the end. And that’s when I knew. So I started getting ready. Like, I started planning that I’m gonna get rid of this guy. You know, I didn’t need him. My son wasn’t around when this happened, that we weren’t even at home. But I knew then, like, that was the beginning of the end, and I knew I had to get rid of him. I just didn’t know how to do it. And I was very lucky because I had my own place. Like, my parents had given me a little house to live in for me and my son. And I was fortunate that I had that. But it’s not everybody that are lucky like I am. You know, usually we have nowhere to go. And everywhere we turn, nobody believes or hears us. And the judgments are unbelievable. So I think people should just listen to understand and not judge, because we need help, and we need people to listen. And we don’t need to know what. What you think we should do. We need to know what we. You know, like, we need to hear people telling us some stuff, but not. Not to think, because that we’re gonna follow exactly what they say. But it gives us ideas. And for me, like, my mom warned me from the beginning, my mom saw it all, but I didn’t see it. I thought I was in love. I thought this was the man of my dreams. Obviously not.

Jenna Mayne: Yeah.

Jenna Mayne: And that’s the hard thing, right? Is how do you plant those seeds? And like you said, you can’t just have someone come in and tell you what to do. That’s not going to resonate with someone going through it, because when you’re in it, it’s so much different. And I think that’s difficult for people on the outside to sometimes understand, and it’s, how do I support? But I think sometimes it’s just letting them know, like you said, not being judgmental, letting the person know you are here for them. You see some things that you’re concerned about, and just planting those seeds so that if they do decide to leave that relationship, they know they have someone who genuinely cares about them and will help them.

Colette Martin: Exactly.

Jenna Mayne: Yeah, I wanted to ask you, too, Colette. After you kicked him out, I was wondering how that unfolded.

Colette Martin: After I kicked him out, nothing. Nothing really happened. Like, I never thought in a million years he would come back and try and kill me. After I kicked him out, I, told him this wasn’t for me. I didn’t want to be with him anymore. He moved back to Montreal, where he was from. And after a few months, I think he moved back here in New Brunswick. He moved back to Moncton, and he had another girlfriend. He was living with her. You know, he would still. He would write me love letters to tell me he wanted me back, or he would call and stuff. And another thing, I never realized that he had left all that stuff behind to come back and retrieve things, you know, that gave him an excuse to come back. I didn’t realize it at the time, but now that I look back, I know that that was another one of his plans to come back into my life. You know, so he would call and he would write me letters and stuff, but I would be firm and tell him no, and that I had moved on with my life. He didn’t. I guess that freaked him out. And seven, months later, he came at night when I was sleeping. But I really wasn’t expecting him to do that. I just. And I had just called my cousin, because I didn’t want any trouble. Like, I didn’t want to argue with him. I just, you know, I just wanted peace. But that was, like, so out of, I don’t know, it just still blows my mind when I think about it.

Jenna Mayne: Yeah. And I think that piece is so important because that’s something we always talk about with women and say that leaving is the most dangerous time of a relationship, and it’s the time when violence is most likely to escalate. And I don’t think a lot of. Yeah, a lot of people don’t know that. Right? And that’s why we say for those who. Who do have connections, you know, reach out to a women’s shelter, make a safety plan, because there’s a lot that you can do to make sure you’re safe. And you didn’t know this. You had no way of knowing this. And the crazy thing is that it was seven months later. Right. It wasn’t right when it ended. I think just knowing how to be safe, you know, what are the steps? What can you do? Is really, really important.

Colette Martin: Yeah, it is. And for me, 26 years. 26 years ago, there wasn’t all the support and all, you know, all these homes, and all these shelters and, you know, like, they have so many different support systems around now. They have, like, you can call places, you can go see outreach workers. You know, there’s so many support systems all over. There’s no reason that we need to stay. But it’s like you said, when we’re ready and it’s safe, we know. Like, I knew that I needed to get rid of him. I didn’t know to what extent it would go, but I did everything right. So when people ask, why didn’t you leave? Or, you know, like, why did you stay, that long if it was that bad? Like, I thought I did everything right, and it still happened to me. So we have to be very, very careful. And it’s not right that we have to look over our shoulders for everything. You know, it’s just, we need to help women, and we need to work together to make a difference. We can’t do it on our own. I was even, I even attended, the white ribbon campaign here in New Brunswick. They’re, male allies. Like, we even, like we have so much support all over the world. We need to get together and light the way for other victims survivors to find help and to be at peace. And I think that I’m giving them little hope to keep going.

Jenna Mayne: You are. And you’ve done this in so many ways. You know, the one way, the way we got connected. You participated in our short documentary for she is your neighbour, which we’re so excited about.

Jenna Mayne: To have you on that and share.

Jenna Mayne: Your story, it was just so powerful. And the documentary has won some awards by now, too, so it’s just been really amazing to see. But that’s only a small little piece of the advocacy work that you’ve been doing. I actually wonder, before you tell us about that, maybe you could take us back to how you got into this advocacy work, because I know you said, you know, it helped you start to heal, but you didn’t share for a long time. So what prompted you to do this?

Colette Martin: my mom was dying four years ago, and she told me to get rid of everything that hurt me. I didn’t understand what she meant, but I knew there was a message in those words for me. But then Covid hit, and I had all that time to try and figure out what did she mean? And I knew that she was talking about all the stuff that I was carrying inside and wasn’t able to share for all those years because I just didn’t want to hurt anybody. I didn’t want to bring back. Like, I didn’t want to re traumatize my family, m my cousin, my son. Like, I just. And, like I said, there wasn’t any resources like there is now. And, one day I talked about it with my son a lot to try and figure out what I could do for work, because with my PTSD, it’s difficult for me to do a lot of stuff. You know, I could talk in front of a thousand people. It doesn’t bother me. But making a puzzle gives me anxiety. So, you know, like, if I have to concentrate a lot, then I get really bad anxiety. So for me to be able to go out and get, like, a regular job, and stuff that I have to think a lot and stuff and concentrate a lot makes me sick. So, I was always so scared to ask, right? So one day, my son came up and he said, mom, we’re going to write your story. So I started writing my story. I started writing a book, which is not a book yet because it’s not done, because I’ve been working so hard with everything else that I don’t. I never had time to sit down and finish anything. But I found some friends here in Moncton, and they’re willing to help me write my story, and I’m really excited about that because they’ll walk me through it because they just wrote books. They’re a part of this group in Moncton of women, and they’re called the wows, and they’re women of words, and they’re supposed to help me write my story, and they’re going to do it for nothing because they know that I don’t have a job yet, so they’re willing to help because that’s their way. That’s their gift to the world, you know, helping me share my story. So then, what happened? I put a little video of myself on Instagram. I thought, oh, my God, I finally found my tribe. Like, I couldn’t believe that there was all these people going through all of this. Like, I was the only one, like, in a small community in New Brunswick. Nobody talked about it. I knew, like, some of this had happened, you know, but, everybody, you know, like, nobody talked about anything. Everybody hides it. And it’s time for us to speak up and not be silent anymore because silence is harboring our perpetrators, and we need to do something about it. And the only way to do it, is share our story. But also we have to make sure that we have a safe space for us to share our story in. I just want to make sure that people know that it’s very, very dangerous.

Jenna Mayne: Absolutely. I think you make a good point there. That’s something we always have to be careful about when we have people on this podcast, too. Is. Are they in a safe situation to share? And when we found you for the documentary, actually, we saw that you had done a CBC interview about Claire’s law that you helped get passed in New Brunswick. And we knew then that you were in a safe place to share because you. You had shared before. And we talk with you a lot about that.

Jenna Mayne: But I agree.

Jenna Mayne: I think that’s something listeners need to know. You need to be in a safe place to share your story. This isn’t something we take lightly. It’s really important. But I’m so glad to hear you share about how you got into this, and that’s really interesting, and I appreciate you sharing that about your mom, too, Colette. I think, you know, our parents can have such a big impact on us. And I lost my dad a year ago, too. Yeah. Thank you. And I’m sorry about your loss, too. But I think, you know, I think they’re proud of the work that we’re doing. And I like to think, you know, they’re looking down and then they’re pretty happy with the moves that we’re making. So I think they definitely would be. I also wondered if you could tell us a bit about Bill 17, informally known as Clare’s law, that you helped get passed in New Brunswick. So the actual title of the law is the disclosure to protect against intimate partner violence act. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Colette Martin: Yes. so Bill 17 was passed December 16 of, 2022. And it is to, help us find out about our abusers or ex partners background. they cannot give you anything specific. It would be word of mouth. they can’t give you you specific charges and stuff, but they will be able to tell you if it’s high risk or low risk. And I think that that’s a great tool for us. So they’re working on it right now. I am sharing it with the world to make it, that everybody knows that this is available. I really could have used this law back in my time because my ex had broke the job, his ex girlfriend, but I had no way of knowing. So for me, that was like, that’s really, really important. And then, especially with everyone, like, online dating and stuff, we really don’t know who these people are. Like, if we sometimes we don’t even know who they are. They live right next door to us. It’s like you said, she is your neighbour, so we really don’t know what’s going on. So, I think this law is really important, and I think it should be all over the world. And, what happened with me is that this little girl from UNB, the, University of New Brunswick, contacted me when she saw all the advocacy I was doing. And she contacted me and she said, did you ever hear of Claire’s law? And I said, no. And she told me about it. She sent me the link and stuff. And, she said, do you think you could work on this and get it all done and get it passed? And I said, well, I said, tiff, I can’t. Her name is Tiffany Fazio. I didn’t know if I said, like, I don’t know if I’ll be able to do anything, but I’m going to give it my best shot. And, like, not, I called our MLA. I called our MP, they must have worked on their end. Like, I know my m m MLA worked on her end and brought it to Fredericton, but they were already. Women’s equality branch were already looking into it. So I think when I called and I shared my story, and I think it kind of, you know, made it more real. So, yeah, it didn’t take long. I’m sure, like, within a year, this, law was passed, and it was. What an honor. Oh, they gave me a standing ovation. Like, it was unbelievable. Like, I went for the second reading. I was there for a long time. Time. But it was passed, and it was passed unanimously. And, it’s absolutely beautiful.

Jenna Mayne: That’s amazing. That’s a huge accomplishment, Colette. That’s just doing so much for women. And I won’t forget the date it was passed, because December 16 is my birthday, so. Yeah, happy birthday.

Colette Martin: My birthday’s on the.

Jenna Mayne: No way.

Colette Martin: Yeah.

Jenna Mayne: Oh, my gosh. So, next week, it’s Sagittarius.

Colette Martin: Yeah.

Jenna Mayne: That’s awesome.

Jenna Mayne: That’s why we’re so connected.

Colette Martin: Yeah.

Jenna Mayne: And just for people listening, too, I wanted to mention that, we don’t have Claire’s law passed yet in Ontario. We do have a motion passed relating to it that happened June 6, 2023, and that was MPP Jenny Stevens, who brought that forward. So she brought forward that motion. So, the Ontario government is considering adopting legislation like this, but it is still in the works, and it hasn’t happened yet. So, just for our listeners to know where we’re at in Ontario, we are getting there. We got to keep. Keep hope and keep looking forward. So, on that note, Colette, I wondered if you could share something. We always ask podcast guests, is, you know, this is called. She is your neighbour. And we always want to talk about what we can do to be better neighbours to women who are experiencing domestic violence. And I’m wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Colette Martin: For me, I think if you see something, call it out. It’s not cool to abuse women, and it’s not cool to do any kinds of violence, against women or anywhere or anyone. And, I think you should just stand up and talk about it and start sharing it with your friends and saying, like, you know, if you see something, stop it. Or, you know, just don’t do it.

Jenna Mayne: I agree. And I think what you said earlier, too, we talked about this early in the episode, but just showing people that you’re there and you’re someone who’s supportive and you’re not judgmental, there’s so much we can do to kind of, to help others. And, and you do need to say something if you see it. So thank you so much, Colette, for being here. I really can’t thank you enough for sharing your story. I know. I know it’s difficult, but it is just such an incredible story. And I’m so grateful for all the work that you’re doing.

Colette Martin: Thank you.

Jenna Mayne: That wraps up this week’s show, but the conversation, conversation is far from over. We want to hear what you think. Use the hashtag sheisyourneighbour on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, or Twitter, and join in the conversation.

We all have a role to play in ending domestic violence.

Understanding Indigenous Identity and Trauma with Destiny Bailey

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:01.109) 

Hi Destiny, thank you so much for being here! 

  

Destiny Bailey (00:04.226) 

Hi Jenna, how are you? I’m very excited to be here. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:07.063) 

Oh, I’m so good. I’m so excited to talk to you. I know Fal and Farinacci has told us great things about Abbey House. We’re just so excited to get you on the podcast. So, I couldn’t be more grateful that you’re here today.  

  

Destiny Bailey (00:19.246) 

Thank you. I am very grateful too. This is big. This is big to be able to reach out and reach out to people so they can understand what’s really happening. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:32.767) 

Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, and I know people are going to be inspired by your story. We haven’t even talked yet, but I, from what I do know, I know it’s going to be a great conversation. So, I’m really excited. So, in this series of She Is Your Neighbour, it’s all about celebrating strong Indigenous women who are moving beyond violence and helping other women move beyond violence. We’re also going to be exploring the impact that domestic violence and gender-based violence has on Indigenous communities. 

  

Destiny Bailey (00:41.272) 

Thank you. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (01:00.651) 

So again, really grateful to have you here. And I was wondering if you could just start by sharing a little bit about yourself. 

  

Destiny Bailey (01:07.052) 

Okay, so I’m a 63-year-old Indigenous woman. I grew up in Winnipeg. I lived with my mom and my brother. My mom was not Indigenous. My dad was in and out of the picture. My grandmother on my dad’s side is full-blooded Blackfoot. And as a child, I remember my mom experienced a lot of domestic violence from her partner. So, I grew up very traumatized and scared. 

But my mom did the best that she could being in the sixties with two Indigenous Black children. But I also remember, and this stuck with me forever because I never felt like I belonged. The lady that lived across, we lived in the developments in the north end of Winnipeg. I used to have to do chores before I could leave the house. And that was a lot of chores, washing walls, washing floors. My mom was really good learning to cook. 

And so after I was done, the lady would come across the street and ask my mom if she could take me across to her place, which was just right beside it, like across the way. And she would cook me fry bread and I would sit on the stoop and she would tell me all the stories, all the history of the Indigenous people and where we’re at today. Cause in that north end, there was a lot of Indigenous people and there was a lot of drinking and fighting and… 

So that was my perceptive of them until she started speaking with me and it stuck with me forever and ever. And so then I, when I was young, I, I’m like, I believe today those stories brought me where I’m at today. I also got mixed up with the wrong man and I started working the streets, moved from Winnipeg to Montreal. 

And I started working the streets and then I got, I left, I left him. I moved out to Niagara Falls, St. Catharines and I got into doing drugs. So, my addiction took over and I was still working the streets. And then I stopped doing that and started selling drugs. So it took me right to a really dark place. And then after so many years of doing this, getting arrested, getting out, getting arrested, going back to doing it. I ended up doing pen time. And when I got out, I said that was it. I wasn’t doing this no more.  

So I went to college at the age, I’m going to say I was 63 now, I was 48. And I went and took Child and Family Services, Native Child and Family Services, graduated from Confederation College. Obviously, I tried to find a job in Elliott Lake where I was living. And of course, I had a criminal record, so no. So, I moved back to Winnipeg where I’m from and lived with my brother. And I went on the bus. And you know, if you’ve been in Winnipeg, you know what the bus system’s like and the weather. And I went to probably 100 jobs, got interviews, got hired until they found out I had a criminal record. 

 So then I got a job working at Villa Rosa. And then I did cleaning and I did looking after respite, looking after children. So, I worked three jobs. And then unfortunately in 2019, I lost my mom. So, I moved back to St. Catharines, because I still kept in touch with a few people that had got their life together. 

And I started working at DLB Electric, which I was the worst administrative assistant you can think of, but it was a really good friend of mine and then COVID hit. So I started cleaning houses, driving for pie guys and working at a restaurant on the weekend. And then I applied to the Niagara Regional Native Center. And this is where I’m at today. So it was a long haul, but I guess perseverance paid off and, 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (05:05.175) 

Ya 

  

Destiny Bailey (05:29.122) 

Yeah, I’ll be here five years in October. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (05:32.153) 

That’s amazing Destiny. I’m so glad. What a journey you’ve had and thank you for sharing that with us. I know that’s just a short summary and scratching the surface, but it’s nice to kind of understand the full picture. So, thank you so much for sharing that with us. 

  

Destiny Bailey (05:45.998) 

You’re welcome. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (05:50.163) 

And that’s amazing where you are now too. There’s a few things that you shared in there that I kind of wanted to ask you a little bit more about if that’s okay. The one thing that first stuck out to me is you talked about the woman who lived across the way and how she really changed, you know, your perception of Indigenous people. And I thought that was so cool because I think there are so many stereotypes out there. 

  

Destiny Bailey (05:56.76) 

Sure. Yeah. Yes. 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (06:14.304) 

and they’re not always accurate, you know? So it’s so nice to hear that she was able to change your perspective. Could you share a little bit more about that, if you’re willing? 

  

Destiny Bailey (06:23.852) 

Okay, well, she, okay, so we would sit and she would, I would say to her like, why are they always fighting with each other? But then my mom was, you know, a part of that domestic violence too. But I said, why are they always fighting? Why are they drinking? Why are they doing this? And she would explain to me that the trauma, this was never like this. They were never like this. The women would look after the children and the cooking and the men would go out and hunt and they would only take what they needed.  

And it was the hap, they were happy. Like they were a family. And I mean, it didn’t matter if you weren’t related, aunties, uncles, they were, you know what I mean? Taking care of each other. And she said, and then the colonization happened. And then the 60 scoop where they stole the children. So, parents didn’t get to parent their children. And then those children growing up did not know how to parent their children. So it was just a whole cycle over and over again, and it helped me to understand. And I think once I realized that I didn’t belong and then I went through my addiction, I really, really got into doing my studies and reading and it was amazing. How they used to use moths for diapers, how they only killed the animals that they needed to feed their families. 

 You know, it really made me look differently about the trauma that the Indigenous people are going through, especially the women and the girls. The women and the girls, just, it’s a target on their back. And it’s just like, well, it’s just another Indian. No, it’s a human being. They have parents, people that care about them. They’re still human beings. So yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (08:12.907) 

Yeah. thank you for sharing that. I think that’s just so important to understand. And we can’t talk about Indigenous history and the culture without talking about colonization and the 60s scoop and the impact that this had on all these people and the intergenerational trauma that Indigenous people have had to endure. I think it’s just completely unfair. And I think once you unpack some of that, it’s so much easier to have empathy and understand these experiences, right? So, I’m so glad you shared that, I think that’s a really important thing to highlight here and something I want our listeners to get out of this too, to really try and take away some of those stereotypes that I think still exist. 

  

Destiny Bailey (08:53.678) 

And for people to say, just get over it, you’ve got to meet people where they’re at. And I mean, and that was a learning curve for me here when I started at Abbey House was, okay, just because you did it, but I had to unpack trauma too. I put myself through a lot of abuse. I put myself through situations that should have never done that, but I’m still alive because you can’t come back from dead. You can come back from mostly anything, but you can’t come back from dead. 

So, I believe the creator has me here to be able to help and guide these women and children to have a better life, happy, healthy life, to have a roof over their head and not to be judged or stereotyped. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (09:36.993) 

I think so too. And I think just your journey is incredible and it’s kind of come full circle and here you are now working with Indigenous women and kids. And I just think that’s so amazing and going back to school at 48, like it’s just, it’s incredible what you’ve been able to accomplish despite all the hurdles that you faced. So, I love hearing about that. I’m also wondering if you could share a little bit about some of your personal experience, a bit more of your personal experience with domestic violence. 

  

Destiny Bailey (09:42.872) 

Yeah. Yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (10:05.239) 

And I believe you experienced some human trafficking as well. 

  

Destiny Bailey (10:09.24) 

Yeah, the first gentleman that I got involved with snatched me. I mean, I wasn’t young. I was 25, but I think I was still naive. Do know what I mean? Like I was one of those girls that, you you get married, you have a white picket fence, have two children, and you stay married for the rest of life was my goal in life. And that didn’t work out. 

 So we went, like I said, took me to Montreal and Calgary, Alberta, and he had a couple of other women. I was out there making thousands of dollars a day. I wasn’t into the drugs at this, at this time, but you know, the high life, was great. You know, you’re wearing all these fancy clothes and blah, blah, blah. And, then the violence started. 

He wasn’t as violent, but the violence started and the neglect. And so I left and I started hanging out with the girls that were with, not with pimps and we started using drugs and it started off just, you know, once in a while on the weekends and then it got carried away. And then I met another guy who was very violent, who, I, black eyes, black eyes, fat lips, get out there and get to work and, you know, come take your money sort of thing.  

So, then I left there and I, came out to St. Catharines, Niagara Falls and I was with a white guy who was a drug dealer and very, very abusive. he would go out and sleep with other women then come home and beat me up, put my head through a glass door, choked me with a rope, ripped up my clothes, and then send me out to work to make money because he didn’t have any money. Yeah. And then I started trying to make contact with my child because I did get married, had a child, and he was very abusive. And so I left. I left with my mother-in-law and was trying to go back and see her, but every time I go, he’d beat me up. So, I get my mother-in-law to bring her over to see me. And then I just got involved with this guy. And every time I was time to see my daughter, he would punch me in the face so I’d have a black eye so I couldn’t see her. That lasted for five years. I kept leaving. He kept finding me and dragging me back. 

And then until finally he threw a spoon, hit me in the back of my head and split my head open. And I took off and I was walking down the stairs and this police officer, of course I knew a lot of the police officers because they used to tell me, you know, this is not for you. And I was like, yeah, I know eventually I’m going to come out of it. And they said, unless you die. And I was, I didn’t know it was bleeding. And he pulled me over and said, you’re bleeding. 

And I told him what happened. So, he went back to the house and knocked on the door and took off his police belt and told him to come outside and said, let’s see how you feel. I was like, no, leave it alone. Cause he eventually he will find me. I left Niagara Falls, went to St. Catharines and then, I left him and then I continued and continued to, sell drugs. And that was my thing, selling drugs. 

Not to pregnant women, not to people under age, but I was the worst drug dealer because it was like giving it away, making sure the girls that are working on the streets had a place to stay, gave them clothes, but it still didn’t make up for what I did. So, you know, there was a lot of guilt there. and then I got arrested and did pen time. And I think that was the wake up call. It was like, you know, and I think I just, cause I walked down the street one day and I said, you know what, creator? 

  

I’m going to die or I’m going to go to jail for a long time. And I guess he chose the latter. And yeah, so I’ve been clean since, it’s almost 18 years in October, or September, sorry, 18 years in September. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (14:37.355) 

Wow, that’s amazing. That’s such an accomplishment. Congratulations on that too. And Destiny, just, really appreciate you sharing your short story. I know it’s probably still hard to retell. It’s hard to listen to, to be honest. It’s awful what you had to endure. I can’t believe how you’ve just come out of this and turned your life around. It’s really incredible and inspiring. 

  

Destiny Bailey (14:38.924) 

Yeah. Thank you. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (15:04.147) 

Also, something that I kind of noticed when you sharing your story was about the violence, how it kind of escalated over time for you too, you know? And that’s something I want to point out because sometimes people ask, you know, why did she get in a relationship with this guy? Or why didn’t she just leave? And it’s not as simple as that, right? And I think your story helps highlight that, that, you know, it starts with the really small things and then you start to not realize and then the next thing happens and the next thing happens and before you know it things have gotten out of control a lot of the time. 

  

Destiny Bailey (15:36.3) 

You know, the thing is, I don’t have family in St. Catharines. I have friends. I didn’t grow up with people here. I grew up in Winnipeg. So the last guy that I was with, I think the breaking point was when he bought me a car and I kept it. And then he sucked me in. So, here’s me sleeping on different people’s couches, getting hotel rooms, and I just kind of wanted a home. So, I went back, went for a ride. 

He took me out to the golf course, beat me so bad, left me unconscious. I couldn’t see out of either my eyes. And I somehow made it across the street to Four Corners to the phone booth and phoned a friend who had called me a taxi. As I’m on the phone, he came rushing over in the car and tried to run me over in the phone booth. The cab ended up, and I think that was the last draw for me, but it was always wanting to be accepted from people that I only met in this kind of lifestyle that I was leading, you know? So, yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (16:44.672) 

Yeah, well and the isolation, that’s what I hear too. You, you said you didn’t have the family that you had back home, so you were isolated. You didn’t have anyone else you could rely on or lean on. And we know that violence is likely to escalate when someone is isolated because the abusive person can use that to their advantage too. And it sounds like that’s what happened here in some ways. 

  

Destiny Bailey (17:07.682) 

Yeah. Yeah, it was. I mean, we had a nice home. We had dogs. We had a nice home. He was just a very violent gentleman. yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy. It’s crazy. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (17:19.221) 

Yeah, yeah and so you mentioned then you ended up going to prison for a little bit. I wondered if you could share a little bit about that experience and if it’s relevant how addiction impacted your journey as well. 

  

Destiny Bailey (17:34.126) 

Okay. So I was constantly in and out of jail either for prostitution, not so much the drugs. I was pretty, pretty slick, but eventually that, that landed me in the big house, and driving under suspension. I mean, I just never renewed my license. So, driving under suspension. So that landed me in and out. I, I’d only go for like, they’d say 30 days. So you do 20 and then it got to five months. 

And I did three and then it got to seven months and then I did five. And I just said I had a obsession. So last time I went to court, I said I obsession with driving, which I believe I did because I have a very addictive personality. So he said, next time you come back, you’re going to be doing a year. So that for a couple of years, was not, I was still using and selling, but I was just staying out of the limelight. And when you go to jail, 

I didn’t know anything. I was naive. I knew how to sell drugs. I knew how to sell myself. But you learn how to do frauds. You learn how to cook drugs. You learn how to do everything that these groups, because that’s all they do. All we had to do is sit around and talk about crimes. So when you leave there, you have a wealth of crime that you can do. Not that I did it because, you know, that was enough for me, but… 

That was the extent of everything that the jail had to offer. I mean, there was programming when you got to the pen, but other than that, you just sit around, eat and talk and they smoke weed, smoke hash and do their drugs, make brew, learn how to make brew in the toilet. You know what I mean? It’s, yeah. And you know, it’s so, I think to me going to jail, if I was that, brave, I would have learned to do a lot more crimes, which you used to see the girls, it was like a revolving door. And last time I couldn’t wait. And I said, that would be my last time. And it’s my last time. It was my last time, but it’s scary. There’s lots of violence. There’s lots of people that are getting packages in jail. And so there’s no rehabilitation, you know, they just, they really need to put some programming and like with here, with Abbey House, we’re teaching them how to open a bank account, how to budget money, how to cook, how to clean. Do you know what mean? You don’t learn any of that. So, yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (20:09.695) 

Yeah, yeah, I can’t believe that. That’s crazy how you can learn so much more about crime and it can just kind of snowball as you’re in there. When you said, you know, the last time was your last time in there. Was there something different about that time or was it just a switch in your mind? Like, do you know what it was that made it the last time? 

  

Destiny Bailey (20:31.352) 

Yeah, it was going to the big house. It was going to the penitentiary. Thank goodness it wasn’t P4W because P4W, I had a few people that I associated with that didn’t make it out of there because they hung them, they got killed, they got shanked. It was Grand Valley Institution, which soon as I got in, because I had my grade 12, I started doing horticulture. In the day, I did maintenance and in the afternoon, I did horticulture. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (20:35.542) 

Okay. 

  

Destiny Bailey (21:01.534) 

And one of the girls was getting packages, got high, hit a guard’s car. So, they asked me if I want to go off because I have no violence on my record. None at all. No sex, no pedophile, no sexuality, no sexual assault, none of that. And they asked me if I wanted to go on the outside and cut the grass, which was great because I wanted to get away from people and their stories. I just wanted to live a normal life, connect with my daughter and reconnect with my family. So she told me that I was gonna pick up packages for her I said, no, I’m not. And she said, then you’re gonna meet me in the gym at seven o’clock and we’re gonna fight. And I’m like, okay. I said, I guess I’m gonna get beat up. So I went back to my house and I had a really good house. We had a baby in the house at the time. And so I had the girls braid my hair. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (21:49.809) 

My gosh. 

  

Destiny Bailey (21:58.926) 

Put Vaseline all over my face and I walked away crying going, okay, I’m getting another beating. And then my whole house followed me and told her, if you fight her, you got to fight all of us. So that was, yeah, that was, but she was violent. I watched her smash a girl’s face open right across her forehead. We had CIA Kingston in there. Yeah, there’s a lot of violence going on there. And I just really wanted to get out because I really wanted to live. 

I think I didn’t want to die yet. hadn’t, I missed my twenties and my thirties and some of my forties and I just needed to, catch up to being my age and I dismissed everything. So I think that’s what, yeah. And then, you know, you have a, a record, it’s really hard to get a job. It’s really hard to get across the border. I mean, even though it’s a long time, I’m still fighting… 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (22:41.557) 

Yeah. Oh 

  

Destiny Bailey (22:56.962) 

to get back over there to see, because my grandkids are there. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (23:00.681) 

Okay, my gosh. Well, I’m glad you had that community that you lived with too, who stood behind you. Cause I was getting scared for the end of that story there. And I’m happy that, that didn’t go the way it did. And then how you were able to kind of change things and use it as a wake up call. I think it’s incredible. Like you just have so much resilience and strength in you to be able to do that after all you’ve been through. 

  

Destiny Bailey (23:07.416) 

Yeah. Yeah, I am very determined. mean, even once I was out and things weren’t always, I still was a people pleaser and that was, think, I wasn’t who I was. So now I’m 63, now I’m 63. Do know what I mean? I’ve grown into who I should be. I’m a lot more confident in myself. I mean, we still, you know, 

These women, have their breakdowns. I have my breakdowns, but they all know everything comes from love and kindness. And just to remember, this is where they’re at, destiny, and they eventually will get there. We have an 85 % success rate, so I’m pretty happy. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (24:08.223) 

Yes, please, please tell us a bit more about Abbey House. That’s something we haven’t really gotten into yet. So what is that Abbey House? Tell us all about it. 

  

Destiny Bailey (24:14.222) 

Okay. Okay, I can talk about, I’m going to talk about Maxine Abbey for a second. She’s the one, okay, she was the founding members of the Niagara Regional Native Centre. She sat on the board of directors for several years and has contributed greatly to our region. So, during her time on the board, she had a vision of a transitional support home for women and children.  

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (24:19.541) 

Sure. 

  

Destiny Bailey (24:41.998) 

Unfortunately, in 2004, she was hospitalized and later passed away. However, the transitional house was created. in 2007, in March 2007, Abbey House opened up. Her daughter, Roxanne Abbey, it was the president of the board. She’s now the vice president of the board, but she was an active, Maxine was an active within the community at event. She’d be the first one there, the last one to leave. So, we have her picture all through Abbey House. She’s shining down on us. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (25:07.068) 

Well. 

  

Destiny Bailey (25:09.902) 

And she was known as a greeter, respected by her community and her own personal crisis and personal chaos made her stronger and gave strength to the Aboriginal women who were engulfed in their own crisis. So her mission was to survive Main Strong and she’s very much missed and remembered. And so the mission, she wanted to have a mission. So the purpose of Abbey House is to provide a safe opportunity for transitional living. It’s not a shelter. 

It’s transitional living for Indigenous women with or without children who are at risk of homelessness and are in a transitional period in their life. So, Abbey House will support the women on an outreach basis also. So, it’s we create nurturing, stable, culturally based living environment that encourages, empowers individuals to make positive, long-lasting changes in their lives, in their life, sorry. Abbey House will support women and their children to overcome homelessness. 

societal barriers by assisting them to achieve emotional, spiritual, mental, and physical well-being. So that’s our mission. So, we have four bedrooms. We have two large family room, which is split into two rooms. And we have a smaller family room and two single rooms. So, Abbey House, they had, before I started, and I’m going to do a little bragging because 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (26:15.915) 

That’s incredible. 

  

Destiny Bailey (26:36.01) 

Abbey House has been open 15 years last September and the last four years, Abbey House is top notch. Our funders are so impressed with how Abbey House is being run. Mind you, they come in, we do an interview. And what we started, what I started doing was I was having them do eight workshops a month to get to know each other, because we were closed during COVID, right? 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (26:51.22) 

Yeah 

  

Destiny Bailey (27:05.58) 

So we did a lot of outreach and then we started bringing people in the house, but we did them, we did workshops with them so we can get to know them and see how people, if you’re going through trauma and you’re going through a lot of inner turmoil, you don’t need to be in a room with somebody because they were fitting eight to 10 people in this house. And I was like, how, how is that person going to heal? Right? You can’t. So. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (27:33.237) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Destiny Bailey (27:35.892) 

One person per room, a family, you know, a smaller family and then two single. So they come in, we do workshops, we do a lot of workshops. I do fun things. take them to that big park in Toronto with all the rides. Canada’s Wonderland, we do massages. We’re taking them on a retreat either to… 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (27:56.4) 

Canada’s Wonderland? Aww. 

  

Destiny Bailey (28:05.208) 

Great Wolf Lodge or to the spa place. I can’t remember the name of it. I really want to go take them out to Whitby where there is that thermal spa. So yeah, so we’re going to do that. But they either have to work or go to school. they, sure. So we have a chore list. We put a chore list up. And if they don’t know how, hey, I love a clean place, especially when there’s children. So… 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (28:17.085) 

Yes, yes, my gosh. 

  

Destiny Bailey (28:33.58) 

Let’s do this. We’ll sit down all together and just start scrubbing and cleaning. So the girl I was working with left, I was by myself for two and a half years with 10 outreach families, no, 13 outreach families and probably 15 to 20 children, four in-house women with 10 children. And I did it by myself for two and a half years. And this… 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (28:59.691) 

How? My gosh. 

  

Destiny Bailey (29:01.49) 

And this, I had three jobs, so I had to quit the other two. But this, and I didn’t do banked hours. This is my passion. It’s not my job. It’s my passion. And there was a lot of trauma going on in the house, but I’m telling you right now, this is my fifth group. The last four groups, success stories, those groups, and they still call me and still talk to me. I still see their children at events and they still remember. And the tears, the sweat, the long hours, all paid off. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (29:31.041) 

That is so amazing. Just hear you talk about it. It’s just you’re glowing like it radiates off you. You could tell it’s your passion and that you really are meant to do this destiny, you know, and it makes it seem to me almost like these things that you went through as awful as they were it. It almost in a way, I don’t want to say needed to happen, but if it didn’t happen, you wouldn’t be able to help these women in this way. And it’s incredible. 

  

Destiny Bailey (29:31.113) 

I mean… No, no. And I tell them I’m not ashamed. I tell them my story and I sit down and I say, it’s not about me, it’s about you. Let’s figure out. Maybe it’s not going to happen today, but if you’re putting in the work, I guarantee you 99.9%, it’ll work out. We will keep working on this. I’m like a dog with a bone. I’m not letting it go. And yeah, they’re living in their own places. They have their children. Some of them have jobs. 

  

Some of them are in, they went to Empower to do upgrading and now they’re in college, which either Appetiswin pays for their schooling and gives them a living allowance of $2,000 a month. They go to Homeward Bound, which is the same thing. It’s a four-year program where they can go to school for four years. I have very good connections with landlords where they don’t have to do credit checks and they get housed. We help them with their first month’s rent. 

You know, we do grocery cards. Abbey House buys the groceries. We don’t buy steak and lobster or pop and chips, but you know what I mean? If you don’t know how to cook, we have cooking classes, um, beading classes. I’m still five years in and still don’t know how to be, but nope. Nope. started and I’m like, I’m done. Yeah. Yeah. I can’t do it. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (31:07.703) 

You’re learning! That is okay, my gosh. With all the other amazing programs you have for them, I don’t think they mind if you can’t feed. 

  

Destiny Bailey (31:23.136) 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they laugh at me, they laugh. But we’ve had a lot of tears and a lot of crying and a lot of arguments, but you know what? They know it’s all coming from love and it just works out. say, listen, my life didn’t change overnight. It had to change within first in order for me to be able to do this in a healthy, happy way, like out of love. And I mean… 

I know I probably shouldn’t say this, but yes, I answer my phone on the weekends. Yes, I answer my phone after hours. If it’s an emergency, I’m trying, but you know what? When you’re so passionate about something and you see that success and everything they’ve gone through, it’s so amazing. It’s so amazing. Like these women… 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (32:05.769) 

Yeah. Well, it doesn’t sound like a job. sounds like a part of who you are at this point, right? It’s a part of your identity. 

  

Destiny Bailey (32:11.758) 

Yeah, it is, it’s amazing. I just wish you could come and see the work that gets done here.  

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (32:20.201) 

I want to sometime. I would love that. 

  

Destiny Bailey (32:40.11) 

And I mean, we’re, yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re a big part of the center. We have also a justice department, you know, if anything, they can’t come here with a criminal proceedings. I mean, criminal record, yes, but not still going to court. They have to be clean, 90 days. 

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (32:44.072) 

Mm, yes. 

 

Destiny Bailey (32:47.11) 

I will work with outreach if they’ve been clean for 30 days and we can send them up north, up to Manitoulin Island for three months on the land. We do counseling with, I don’t want to trash their name, but it’s N-O-O-J-I-M-O. We do counseling with them and it’s an Indigenous health and wellness. We have an elder, Roger, who does sweats with us. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (32:46.262) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Destiny Bailey (33:06.772) 

It’s there’s so much, I’ve learned so much about my Indigeneity since I’ve been here and I’m just embracing it. Like I was robbed, you know, so I understand how they feel. Do you know what I mean? The way that indigenous people, the kindness that they show, the way they treat their children, the way they talk to their children, not just throw them in front of the TV. And we have a TV, we have Netflix. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (33:15.903) 

Yes.Yes. 

  

Destiny Bailey (33:34.572) 

We play outside in the backyard. have a sauna back there. We have a playground for the children. We do gardening in the summertime. All these life skills that they need when they leave here. You know, you get pushback, but you’re just like, okay, well, let’s do something else then. Maybe you want to cook lunch with me. You know, you just have to look at where they’re at right now. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (33:58.625) 

Well, and it’s amazing too. sounds to me that part of your, tell me if I’m wrong, but what I’m hearing is part of your healing journey has been connecting to your indigenous roots too. And that’s so amazing. Like I love that. I feel like it’s come full circle from you sitting there talking to the woman across the way. And now you’re learning back to your roots, learning all these things. And it’s just so amazing and inspiring to hear about. 

  

Destiny Bailey (34:08.43) 

100%. 100%. And the center, the center, was a lot of good mentors there for me that didn’t judge me, didn’t laugh at me, were willing to teach me, to willing to show me the way of the Indigenous people. And yeah, it’s amazing. My grandkids, because I used to be very angry, my grandkids just think Nana’s… peaches and cream right now. They’re like, wow, Nana, you’re so cool. Yeah, but you learn a lot. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (34:54.374) 

Aw. Aw. Well, why wouldn’t they? There’s a… Yeah, I’m sure. And there’s something cool you said in there talking about the women, how they have to do chores and you’re happy to teach them. And it made me think about your mom, because I think you said your mom really instilled the chores in you. And I also remember you said earlier that she passed away. You lost her in 2019. And I just wondered, is it…Is that a way you can bring her with you or is there anything you wanted to share about that? 

  

Destiny Bailey (35:26.67) 

I miss her, I miss her every day. I try not to dwell on the many nights that she didn’t sleep and the many nights that she didn’t know where I was because we did have a good relationship once I went to the pen. She was my biggest supporter. Her and I have good friend Steve of mine were my biggest supporters. I did never get a chance to… 

  

get to see her before she passed. But, you know, she did come, actually she did come a couple of times to Winnipeg. She came out to Elliott Lake to see me, but, there’s so much that’s happened in my life that I’m so proud of that. I know she’s watching, but yeah, I miss that. So I always try like you only get one mom, my dad, not so much cause he wasn’t there. you know what I mean? I still miss him. He’s still my dad, but my mom was my rock. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (36:25.013) 

Yeah. 

  

Destiny Bailey (36:25.09) 

So actually she lives in my heart every day. I have her ashes at my house and I’m refusing to give them up. My brother and I are having heavy discussions about that, but I just feel very close to her being there. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sorry. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (36:38.615) 

Yeah, I love that so much. My dad passed away two years ago. Thank you. So I know how it feels to lose a parent, but I know when you find ways to be able to carry them with you, it just really changes how you’re able to move forward. I just, when I thought of you doing the chores, it made me think of her and how she was there with you. I love it so much. Yes. Yes, exactly. Oh, that’s amazing. 

  

Destiny Bailey (36:59.222) 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She was like, get those girls cleaning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She is. And I know, I know, I know she’s an angel up there with my aunt who was also my biggest supporter. so I mean, you know, I do have a breakdown once in a while, but you know what? It’s just like, Hey, I know you’re watching. I know you’re watching and you’re guiding me because life, actually my life, you know, they say things happened in threes and then it’s like, okay. That was supposed to happen to learn us some kind of lesson. I did. Okay, let’s move forward. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (37:34.291) 

Yes, and she is watching, know it. And I know she’d be so proud and she’d be happy seeing those women doing the cleaning. you know, I know she would be. Before we go here, Destiny, I wanted to ask you something we always ask every guest on the podcast is about how we can be better neighbors. This is called She Is Your Neighbor. We really try and highlight how domestic violence and gender-based violence happens in all neighborhoods. It impacts people of all different backgrounds. And I wondered if you could share how you think we could all be better neighbors to Indigenous women and girls who are experiencing gender-based violence. 

  

Destiny Bailey (38:13.144) 

Okay, well, you know what? This podcast was very important to me. As an Indigenous woman, I want to see change. I know Abbey House is a small piece of the puzzle, and I keep hearing how changes are being made. Maybe not fast enough for me, but I think a little at a time, and it’s not enough. I feel that they already know what’s happening, so there is need to help our Indigenous communities. They went through a lot. 

You know, this was their land, so they went through a lot. So, Abbey House is going to keep moving forward and try and reach and help and support as many people as we can. And as a community, we need to be kinder, more open-minded, supportive, and meet people where they’re at. Have listening ears. And sometimes that’s all people need is to hear, to know someone’s listening to them, to hear what they have to say. And then maybe sit down and brainstorm. 

But show compassion, show you care. If you can help in any kind of way, you can help. It doesn’t have to be money-wise. It could be helped by listening. It can be helped by giving out resources. It can be helped by giving them some kind of information that will help them to either find a place, find a food bank. Do you know what I mean? It’s just, we need to be a lot kinder and not so judgy of people because everybody’s struggling right now. 

And it’s unfortunate because addiction now has gotten way, way out of line. It’s people are dying and like, you can’t come back from dying, but you just still don’t sit there and judge that person. You know, when we have drum nights, we take the extra food to a shelter and we feed them. Do you know what I mean? And I think my grandkids on the weekends, when I have them and Nana makes too much food, we go out and we feed them. 

Because I think my grandkids are too bougie, okay? And I said, this can happen overnight. These people didn’t ask for this to happen. So I think as a community, we need to be a little bit more understanding. We need to have some more treatment centers. We need to have some better health and wellness. And we need to get back to the land. You know what I mean? And listen to people and talk to people and find out what we can do to help them. 

  

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (40:10.625) 

Yeah. 

  

Destiny Bailey (40:35.53) 

It might not work today, it might not work tomorrow, but eventually you plant that seed, it’s gonna work. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (40:41.219) 

I agree. And I think that, you know, you highlighted how listening is just so important. And I think it sounds like that’s something you’re able to do at Abbey House. Being a survivor yourself, I think you listen with a different ear and they can relate to you in a different way. And I think even Abbey House listening to you in this role, you you’re able to bring your expertise as a survivor to say, these rooms are not set up right. This is not helping healing. Like even to me, that’s such a great example of… 

  

Destiny Bailey (40:42.338) 

Yeah. Mmmm 

   

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (41:09.643) 

You know, we need to listen to survivors and hear their input and bring them into the change that needs to happen. So thank you so much, Destiny, for being here today. I’m so grateful to talk with you. 

  

Destiny Bailey (41:17.678) 

Thank you. this was amazing. Thank you for making me comfortable and letting me hopefully reach a few people after this podcast. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (41:25.002) 

Ugh. I know this is going to inspire so many people. Thank you, Destiny. 

  

Destiny Bailey (41:32.76) 

Thank you so much. 

 

 

Holistic Approaches to Indigenous Healing with Amber Silversmith

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:00.984) 

Hi Amber, thanks so much for being here today. 

  

Amber Silversmith (00:04.034) 

Hi Jenna. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:05.604) 

So nice to see you again. This is great. Two days in a row actually. Yeah, it’s so nice. I’m really excited to talk with you today and thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

  

Amber Silversmith (00:07.82) 

Yes. Absolutely, it’s definitely an honour. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:19.347) 

Good, I’m excited to talk. So, I’m wondering if you can just start off today by sharing a little bit about yourself for those listening. 

  

Amber Silversmith (00:27.086) 

Sure. So hello everybody. My Cayuga name is Jowethate. It means that she is like on an edge. And it’s a Cayuga name because I’m Cayuga Nation and I am Bear Clan from the Six Nations of the Grand River Territory. 

I am the Love Starts With Us counsellor here at Ganohkwasra. Ganohkwasra is a family assault support center that is here in Six Nations and here in Canada. And we definitely try to support our community. 

  

With all different kinds of programming and we’ll kind of be talking a little bit about that today, but me specifically, I support our Missing and Murdered Indigenous people here in Six Nations and surrounding areas. So as long as they have ties to Six Nations, then they qualify for the program if they have had someone go missing in their family or had been murdered. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (01:53.358) 

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. It was great to learn more about you and hear your introduction. So, thanks so much for that. Yeah, I’m really looking forward to talking more today about the organization you work at, learning a bit more about you and what you do. I was wondering if you could start by elaborating a little bit on what your organization does, how it supports families and children experiencing family violence. 

  

Amber Silversmith (01:54.454) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

 For sure. But first, as you were asking the question, I realized I didn’t even say like my English name. I just said my, I just said my Cayuga name. And sometimes I do forget like, right.  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (02:24.898) 

That would be good! 

  

Amber Silversmith (02:46.442) 

I got to tell them my English name as well. So, my English name is Amber Silversmith. But to get to your question, Ganohkwasra has a lot of different areas where we support our community. Like for instance, we have like our shelter program. Our shelter program is a co-ed facility. So and a family facility, which is different. A lot of people think it’s just a women’s shelter, but no, we take in even families. There’s children there. There’s even like our staff. Some of the shelters in Canada around the world, they only allow women, they only have women shelters or strictly men shelters, but this one you could see staff being male, female, any gender that on the floor supporting somebody.  

 

And we also have our child and youth team, which covers anywhere from four to 18. We also have our women’s program, and we have our men’s program. We have our PARS program. We have a… anti-human trafficking unit. We have our sexual violence healing center. We have our youth residential facility, which is called Youth Lodge. And then we have our next stage housing program. So there’s lots. When we think about Ganohkwasra, there’s definitely lots of programs. There’s lots of different ways that we support, but, kind of different realms of healing as well. 

  

So just thinking about shelter and the men’s program, the women’s program, child and youth, they all kind of cover family violence. S,o if they are fleeing from a domestic violence situation or intimate partner violence, then they qualify for the program for shelter, but also the counselling services there as well for family violence. And then… 

 Obviously, human trafficking is definitely for survivors of human trafficking or people that are just trying to keep themselves safe. Maybe they’re still currently in the game. Maybe they’re trying to get out of the game. Maybe they are trying to just keep themselves safe while they’re finding a way. So, we just try to support anyone that comes through our doors and even through the Sexual Violence Healing Center here. We support anyone ages four and up. The youth lodge, are more focused on, they are actually considered a mental health residential facility. So, but they definitely focus on life skills and modality with, it’s called Reality Therapy Choice Theory. 

So really focusing on that theory to get the youth to self-evaluate about what it is that drives their choices and how they can choose to create better opportunities for themselves. And definitely still doing one-to-one counselling while they’re in there, programming, that kind of stuff. We also have a Section 23 classroom. 

 So that’s kind of piggybacking off of a high school nearby to get so kids can go and get credits. Instead of it being the book and classroom vibe, you have more of a supportive vibe, more of like a counsellor that’s there on-site to be able to support the kids if they’re having a rough day. 

Little bit more one-to-one support for sure. And then our next step housing program is definitely where people are going after shelter where maybe they want to practice having a violent free home. And, but very much still a program. They still have to access counselling. They still have to do their life skills programming while they’re there. So, we have a lot, we have a lot of 

 

 Jenna Mayne (she/her) (07:22.522) 

Mmm. 

 

Amber Silversmith (07:23.63) 

things that are focused on the betterment of whatever they come to our doors with. 

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (07:32.27) 

Yeah, you have so much more than I even realize. It’s amazing. Like what an amazing organization. Like I just think of, I knew you’re similar to our organization, Women’s Crisis Services in a way, because we have the shelter program, we have transitional housing, we do have a couple of human trafficking beds at the shelter, but that’s in partnership with our local sexual assault support center. And some of the things that you’re describing, we have similar things in our area, but again, different organizations cover different pieces. So, it’s just so incredible that you cover this huge scope of work. And I can imagine it’s really helpful, all those different departments working together and whatnot. So, it’s just amazing, hearing about all the incredible work that you do there. 

  

Amber Silversmith (08:15.682) 

Yeah, it’s definitely, it’s very busy, you know, even though we like to hope and wish that we can work ourselves out of a job, unfortunately, you know, the numbers keep coming and we just keep supporting people as they are looking for the support. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (08:20.505) 

Hmm. Yeah, well, it is wonderful you exist. We say the same thing, that that’s our goal to work ourselves out of a job. And sadly, I think we’ve got a long road ahead of us. But I mean, that’s the goal. So, I can appreciate that. I did have some questions about your shelter program too. So fascinating to me how you support families and men. You’re talking about how lot of shelters are women’s shelters or men’s shelters. 

  

Amber Silversmith (08:44.087) 

Yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (09:00.23) 

And that goes for the shelters that we operate. They’re women’s shelters for women and their children experiencing domestic violence. So, we don’t typically have an abusive partner. Well, we don’t at all have an abusive partner on site. We do have men in terms of young men who might be coming with their moms, and we support trans women and trans men, but not just regular old men. So I’m…I’m curious to hear about how it works with your program. Like is it abusive partners or men who have experienced abuse or how does that work? 

  

Amber Silversmith (09:35.502) 

So for the shelter, for example, I know that we have definitely seen a trend of single fathers. At least, I’m gonna say probably the last five years, I’ve really noticed single fathers definitely coming through the shelter doors and wanting support to help just with whatever’s happening in their life at that moment, right? But that was another reason why we always, Ganohkwasra has always had a men’s program. And we had a counsellor here by the name of Diane Beaver. She really, really hit it home with our men. And she was definitely one of the driving forces to get that program started, was the lady. She had it all. So we always… When we think of our men, we think of her too, because she was such a support and such a strong force for them to be able to find the voice and the vulnerability and be able to create a safe space, not just for women and children, but for men too. Because when we think of our Haudenosaunee people here in Six Nations, they bring the balance. Yes, we’re a matriarchal, I guess you could say society and people but… 

Like we follow the mother, right? But the men, also have their important roles and responsibilities when it comes to our families and when it comes to healing. They are the male side of that for us. So, we strongly encourage our men to also get the same type of support. And that’s what we always wanted was for them to have — a safe place to be able to do their work as well. So, then we can have that balance in our families. Because if we’re thinking a bigger picture of community and what that looks like to have a healthier community, you need the male and the female side of that.  

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (11:48.728) 

Yeah, that’s amazing. I’m glad you do that programming. Our organization, like it looks a little bit different. We’ve kind of come to the same kind of the same mindset that you have that it needs to be the whole family if your family is going to heal. So for us, we have an Engaging Men program that works with abusive men or men who I should say use abusive behavior who want support with that. So we have male counsellors who work with those men. 

You know, there’s no limit on the counselling to that programming and often we’ll have a woman in shelter or a woman in our outreach program and then her husband or partner might be in the other men’s program. So we find that’s working really well, but I find it so interesting how you actually bring everyone together under on one roof in the shelter. Did you find has it always been that way or did that start later? Like I’m wondering if the women have any reaction to the men being around or what that’s like. I’m so curious. 

  

Amber Silversmith (12:48.238) 

I think at, I can’t really speak to like the first inception of shelter and how that all came to be, but what I can say just from the things that I have witnessed since I’ve been working here is that it’s kind of talked about every single time someone comes in of, you know, we are a family shelter, you know, there’s men that are in here, there’s children that are in here. Is that going to be an issue? And, you know, definitely a lot of safety planning comes with that. Making sure that, you know, two people that are in the shelter don’t have that conflict within. And if they do, then we have to figure out another alternative method for one of the two, right? 

So, I definitely think safety planning is a huge part of that and which I’m very, very thankful since I have started my career here. It’s always been a huge thing. Safety, safety, safety is the number one priority for our clients. So if they are gonna have an issue with having a male staff on or having male in the shelter, well then okay, well then what’s the options there? Can we look at maybe calling one of our, one of the other shelters that are nearby that are just a women’s shelter or maybe they, depending on where they’re calling from too, it can vary, right? Just different opportunities for somebody. But from what I have seen, there’s never really been like… a big escalation of something that would be dangerous.  

I think shelter is definitely blessed with lot of lifers as well. So they have a lot of staff that have been there for a very long time, which definitely helps in terms of experience of knowing how to deescalate people and knowing how to just bring them down. But I also think that our cultural belief system definitely plays a huge role into that of 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (14:46.074) 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

  

Amber Silversmith (15:10.602) 

us always following the mother. So, really incorporating our cultural programming as well, because then that kind of levels out that aggressive energy that could be there sometimes for some people. Definitely while they’re in fear, definitely while they’re going through their own personal healing while they’re in shelter. So, I feel like the traditional programming definitely helps keep people grounded. 

 And I think that that’s a little bit of a difference for some of the people here. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (15:43.866) 

Well, that’s great to learn about. Yeah, it’s such a unique approach. I love hearing about it. We’re just speaking with someone from Abbey House in Niagara. And yeah, it was great to learn about how they brought in their traditional practices to and how that’s really supported the healing. So, I’m really loving learning more about that. It feels that makes a really big impact for your community. So that’s so cool to hear about. Thank you for sharing. I also want to ask you about your role in the work that you do with the Love Starts With Us program. I know you’re the counsellor of that program. Can you talk a little bit about that program, how it’s grown, evolved, what it’s all about? 

  

Amber Silversmith (16:26.286) 

So I would say probably back in about 2015, 2014, our executive director Sandra Mator, she had kind of spoke with, I would say about four family members that she knew of that had had someone murdered in their family, approached them and asked them, how can we support the families? How can we support our missing and murdered families of in any way. So, they had said, well, we need to really get out there in terms of letting people know that we’re here. We really need to bring awareness to the situation that’s unfolding. So, at the time, Sandra Montour and our elected band council chief at the time, Ava Hill, she, they both pooled their funds together and decided that they were going to send these families with Sandy to a Chiefs of Ontario meeting.  

And there, I think it was in Sudbury at the time, and there they had really gave the platform for these families to speak about some of the shortcomings that they have seen from the government, not coming from the government, support in terms of counselling in terms of victim support, terms of court support, in terms of having any type of grief, recovery, and like anything for these families. It was very minimal, especially if for some of our families it had been a very long time, years, almost 20 plus years for some of them that they haven’t been able to receive any support because back 

In those days, I think it was the, I want to say victims of crime. wasn’t Victim Services back then. was a different name, but even then, the funds weren’t really paid for for them to go and fly to someplace, you know, to attend a parole hearing if they didn’t want that person to be paroled. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (18:35.491) 

Okay. 

  

Amber Silversmith (18:50.796) 

So, they have to travel and they have to pay for their hotel. They have to pay for all that stuff on their own. That was back in the day anyways. So that’s what they were saying. The families felt like they deserved more than that. So that’s what at the time Ava and Sandy had really helped them with that platform of finding their voice and how do we create a program. From there, they embraced them. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (18:50.81) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Amber Silversmith (19:19.168) 

Or Embrace Her With Love, rather, program was born. And it was just the pilot project at first and I was asked to come on board for that and I took that job on in 2018, 2019. And as I was meeting with these families and learning so much from them, they kind of created their own little group within that time and because they had all been doing their own grassroots work in terms of raising awareness about their loved one. So, then they kind of just started to come together and they formed their own like peer support group. And then we kind of just supported that process of meeting with them, but also letting them know, hey, we want to start a program for the missing and murdered families, but can you show us the way? Can you teach us about how… 

to be and how to hold a family member in compassion and integrity and how do we hold that type of space for them. So, I was very, very lucky that they allowed me to come in and ask them questions and to talk about their loved one, to share their moments of grief with me. So I spent a lot of my time with the families, just really getting to know them, getting to know their story, getting to know their loved one. So from that, we really noticed that there was an increase in our young men being murdered here in Six Nations. So at the time, we had really started to talk about, where does our men and boys fit in here? Because at the time, it was just missing a murdered Indigenous women and girls, right? 

There was a lot of focus on, you know, the red dress campaign. There was a lot of focus just on the women and girls. And then finally we had said, well, we got to really take a look at, you know, our own community. And when we look at home, there’s a lot of men that are being murdered. So, we need to take a look at that. And so then they said we were going to change the program name to Embrace Them With Love.  

And then from there, we really started to get some headway in community. The group of women had decided, well, let’s just keep our focus at home. And what really fueled that decision is when we had gone out, we traveled to Ottawa, me and the families at the time, there was probably eight of them, that traveled to Ottawa and we went to the release of the inquiry. And there were thousands, thousands of family members there. And when we went, it was really hard. It was really hard for the families because, and I went as a support person for them. As we were there, just allowing them to do what they needed to do for their own healing, creating safe space for them to debrief after little meetings that we had, little things. And when we were at the release, it was hard for them because when we looked and heard at this big book that they were handing Trudeau at the time and saying, hey, like, we’re going to give you this big book of all these calls to action. And we hope, we hope that you’re going to read this book over and over again. 

 And see all the different types of victimization, all the different types of genocide, all the different types of racism that we’re seeing for our Indigenous people and for our women and girls and 2SLGTBQ+ peoples. So, we were hoping that it was going to be received well. 

 And then the next, that evening, that very evening, Trudeau was on the news and they had questioned him about the biggest statement in the release was that the inquiry really shed light into the genocide that was happening in, and the femicide that was happening in Canada. And he couldn’t really like acknowledge it and he couldn’t really just say like, yes, we definitely see from this book that there is something we need to do and there is a big issue of that happening. So, we’re going to take all of this and really try and focus on ending that.  

Instead, it was just we’re going to take this book and read it over and go from there kind of thing. Because unfortunately, even to this day, I think there’s only maybe five, maybe five of those calls to action that have actually been put in place. But from there, when we debriefed the group and we came back and the families were pretty upset just with how everything had went. it really had them take a look at, well, we can’t look at the government and think that they’re gonna help us. Think that they’re going to, you know, help us with the healing part. Like that’s our responsibility to look at our own community.  

So again, thinking, putting their grassroots hats on and saying, well, let’s focus inward on our own community, what we can control. We can’t control everything that’s happening out there, but we can control what’s happening here in our own community. So, let’s focus inward. Let’s focus on what we can do to raise awareness in our own community. So since then, they decided to shift names again. And so now they refer to themselves as the Love Starts With Us group. And the program changed alongside with them, but they are definitely a driving force, for sure. These women are definitely so strong.  

When people hear about my job and they’re like, that must be a really hard job. And I’m like, you know what? These women show me so much resiliency, show me so much strength. So when I’m sitting across from them, I feel like the best thing I can do to support my community and my people from the family violence and the intimate partner violence, the best thing I can do is sit across from these family members and hold them in kindness and love and compassion. 

Because to me, that’s what I can control, is to just hold that safe space for them. Because look at the big work that they’re doing. To me, that’s what I see. So that’s where, kind of where I get my oomph in this job to keep going and to, and I love my job. I completely love my job to be able to support my community.  

Yeah, these families have definitely supported Ganohkwasra and building the program of what it is because then we got to know the ins and outs and the of how to support missing and murdered family member instead of coming from a clinical approach. You know, they’ve really told us like that’s something that you can kind of throw out the window. You know, when if you’re working with a missing and murdered loved one, you don’t do that. You know,  

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (27:19.481) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Amber Silversmith (27:24.29) 

You have to meet them where they’re at, you have to figure out how to support them culturally, and you have to figure out how to support their spiritual needs as well, their traditional needs. Some of them need ceremony, some of them need, you know, different things that their own community can only do, their home community, depending on, you know, if they’re Haudenosaunee, if they’re Anishinaabe, if they’re Ojibwe, you know, those are all different nations of people, different types of First Nations people. So, I feel like we have to really encourage all the families to go back to their home lands and really do that work there because that’s where they’ll truly get the connectiveness and that’s where they’ll truly get the healing. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (28:20.802) 

Yeah, thank you so much for explaining all this. It’s amazing to hear about your work, just amazing work you’re doing and difficult work too. But I know you focus so much on the healing and I love how that’s kind of, like you said, that’s something we’re not gonna lean on the government to control. That’s something we can control ourselves. And I think in many ways that’s the most important piece, because you gotta focus on what you can control, right? If you can control your own healing, you take control of your own life. And I just love how your cultural practices are tied with the healing. It feels like they’re one in the same. You can’t do one kind of without the other. Could you share even more about that? I know you mentioned sometimes that might involve ceremony. Like what else contributes to a family healing when they have a missing or murdered person in their life? Like how do you kind of go about that? 

  

Amber Silversmith (29:17.806) 

I think it’s definitely key because I hear a lot of the family members come to me and say, you know, like they’ve tried to connect with other counsellors and, you know, trauma-informed care can definitely be taught. But once you really get in there with a person and then you learn that, they’re a First Nations person. Okay, well, they have a tribe, they have a nation, they have a clan, they have like an ongohoi name. So for me, like, mine’s Joete, right? Like that’s a piece, all of that is a piece of their identity. So, if they are disconnected from their identity, then it’s gonna be really hard to focus on the other root causes of their trauma.  

So when I have a client sitting in front of me and I’m like, okay, like, where do you come from? Like, what is some things that kind of light your fire within you? So then I know where to take them in their file, in their journey, however you wanna, whatever you wanna call it, their healing. And I feel like that’s always something that we have to consider when we’re working with people, just meeting them where they’re at. 

 And a lot of the times with our missing and murdered families, is bringing them back to their grassroots. And it just seems to really focus on energy, on yes, ceremony, and that will be different depending on the nation or the tribe of that person. 

 And it’s hard because I can’t share too much of that because those are, that’s really sacred stuff for us, right? Like it’s not something that’s always shared on media platform and not really condoned to share on media platform, but because it is very closed circle, that kind of stuff, just because how our people have really safeguarded that now, those practices, because of other abuses that have happened there as well. know, we have in history have tried to invite people in and then we kind of get, how would you say, it gets used against us or like even, I think it’s only been maybe 50 years that we’ve legally been able to practice our ceremonies again, you know, just thinking about the Indian Act and how that really affected our people. 

 We had to go underground with our ceremonies. So, it’s a huge thing. So when we think about Indigenous identities or First Nations identities, Ongo Hoi identities, it’s definitely something that has to lead with their healing. Because I feel like that’s where the true healing comes in. Because when you can learn to love yourself, learn to love your identity, learn to love who you truly are underneath all the trauma, then that’s where it really happens. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (32:42.936) 

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all this. I do recognize it is very sacred to you as well, like you say, so I hope you don’t feel that I’m asking too prying questions or anything. But yeah, I do appreciate you sharing all that you can. It’s really helpful to learn and very interesting to learn about. I really appreciate it. 

  

Amber Silversmith (32:54.922) 

No, no, no, no, it’s okay. 

Mm hmm. Yeah. And even like, I know another some other practices that we definitely do with within guno kushra is really focusing on energy work. So like a lot of our staff will be trained in Reiki be trained in different energy modalities. EMDR is another modality we use psychodramatic bodywork is another modality we use. RTCT is not so much an energy one but choice theory, right? So lots of focused intention technique. That’s another very energy-based modality. So definitely getting people into their into their body and not so much just in their mind and connecting them with their body. So in doing that, I think we kind of cross barriers from having people just stay in their head. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (33:54.298) 

Mmm. Yeah, and I think that’s so important because if you’re not taking an embodied approach, I don’t know that you can fully heal if you’re not, that’s my own opinion. But yeah, and just for those listening, it was so cool. I got to go visit the organization yesterday with Amber and just to kind of paint the picture a little bit, like something I really noticed, you know, there’s so much art on the walls. It was colorful. And then to see all the rooms, like you could see how you really were engaging your body, wasn’t just working on the mind y’know, there were beds for the reiki and you showed me the other room that had all the padding on the floor. And just explaining what those different pieces were for, it was so interesting to learn about and you could really see how it was like a whole, you know, mind and body healing experience and how it was all one. So I just wanted to add that tidbit in because that was something really cool that I got to see yesterday and I appreciate you taking me on the tour Amber. 

  

Amber Silversmith (35:00.302) 

Yeah, and that tour was actually of our sexual violence healing center. So, we just moved in here in June of this year, June of 2025. So that was really, really exciting just to be able to have our own space to call our home. And we also have a harmonic egg here. So if you have not done any research on a harmonic egg, you definitely need to. There’s a few in Ontario, but we are now home to one of them. It definitely works with, I guess you would say universal energy, lights and sound. Little bit of vibration coming from the chair, but not too much. Like if you’ve ever sat next to a subwoofer and you can feel the vibration of the music moving through your body, like at a concert or if you’re a 90s baby like me, you might know that era. definitely feeling the good vibes, right, that come from that. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (36:04.857) 

Mm-hmm. Yep. 

  

Amber Silversmith (36:11.308) 

You can experience some stuff like that when you’re in the egg. So, you just sit in the egg and the colors and the music, everything has meaning to it. It all has different reasons why you would use the egg. Like if you want it to focus on anxiety, if you want it to focus on grief, if you want it to focus on autoimmune disease, there’s all different types of protocols that we can utilize to assist somebody in clearing that from their body. So, we’ve had quite tremendous feedback from staff and from clients because we’re gonna also has a policy of, know, we’re not gonna put our clients through anything that we haven’t used ourselves. So, during our training time, you know, you read the manual, but you also got to get in there yourself. So then you can tell your client how safe it is, right? 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (37:01.998) 

Mm-Hmm. 

  

Amber Silversmith (37:10.99) 

So yeah, it’s definitely, it’s a really cool experience. S,o if you have not tried an egg, I highly recommend you look online and see where the closest harmonic egg is to you and book yourself a session. Yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (37:27.332) 

That is so cool. That’s so cool. Before we go here, Amber, also wanted to ask you something we always ask guests on the podcast is about how we can be better neighbours to those experiencing domestic violence, gender-based violence. And I’m wondering your thoughts on this. 

  

Amber Silversmith (37:48.046) 

It’s a really good question. Definitely, I always tell people to think about safety planning. Safety planning can go so far. like even with teachers, even with coaches, looking at safety plans online, just finding little ones that you might be able to use with your, the kids that you might be working with or even for adults, if you’re working with high-risk adults coming in the shelter, anything like that, you can definitely find safety plans online that might be really beneficial.  

Even if you’re a parent, doing safety planning with your kids is really, really important. Nowadays, especially with all the social media and all the luring that happens on gaming systems, online, you know, I really think that it’s a huge thing that people need to take seriously is safety planning.  

And if that’s one thing you can do, you know, then to educate yourself is definitely another. So if you’re wondering about missing and murdered, know, go online and Google stuff. It’s simple questions, if not, reach out to, you know, local community centers that might be focusing on missing and murdered or if it’s sexual violence you’re worrying about or wondering about, then call. Call and ask some questions. Don’t be afraid to ask the questions to an organization or Google because that’s definitely one thing I did learn.  

So we also have a to ask 2SLGBTQIA+ toolkit that Ganohkwasra has definitely built. The person that is running that project up right now, her name is Kylie Mae, and she is amazing. And she has kind of helped build this along with a lot of other people, but it’s an online portal where you’ll be able to learn how to support the 2SLGTBQIA+ community and especially if you’re a frontline worker, y’know, the toolkit is very easy. You know, you just scan the QR code and then you go online and learn how to navigate through it. And it’s pretty simple. It’s a pretty simple online platform, but it’s really good if you’re wondering about pronouns, if you’re wondering about anything, then you can go on there and kind of find your answers. 

 So, they’ve made it very user friendly, also, so especially for us frontline workers, if we’re wondering how to support someone from that community, then this is a great safe way to do that. 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (40:55.138) 

That’s fantastic. Yeah, I’m going to pass it along actually to our team here too, because that’s something we’re always looking to improve on as well. So that’s great to know. Thank you so much for being here today, Amber. I’m so grateful to have the chance to talk to you. I feel I could have talked to you for another hour easily, but we’ll have to do that offline. But thank you so much for being here today. 

  

Amber Silversmith (41:10.158) 

Yeah. Thank you, thank you for having me. It really was an honour. 

 

 

Supporting Survivors with Culturally Safe Housing with Qwuy’um’aat Elliott

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:01.004) 

Hi, Qwuy’um’aat! Thanks so much for being here today! 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (00:04.354) 

Hi Jenna, yeah, it’s a thrill to be here. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:07.414) 

I’m so excited to speak with you. I’ve heard different things about you, exciting things. I’m really, really excited to pick your brain today and have you on this series. So thank you so much for being here. 

 

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (00:18.72) 

Excellent. Yeah, I’m excited to have this conversation. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:21.65) 

Awesome. So, in this series of She Is Your Neighbour, it’s all about celebrating strong Indigenous women moving beyond violence. And we’re also going to be talking about the impact that domestic violence and gender-based violence has on Indigenous communities. So, we’re again, we’re thrilled to have you here to talk about this. And I’m hoping that you could just start by sharing a little bit about yourself. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (00:45.784) 

Yeah, definitely. So my name is Qwuy’um’aat. I am a proud member of the Cowichan Tribes, which is located on what is now called Vancouver Island in British Columbia. My professional background, I hold a master’s in community planning, a degree in business centering around human resources. And then I’ve also completed a certificate in First Nations housing management. So I know at the onset, that’s a very dynamic background, but for me, my passion is community and people and how we navigate systems. So for me, my background is rooted in Indigenous planning, centering around housing. currently, yeah, I am thrilled to work with on many different projects, really enhancing self-determination, inclusion, equity, Indigenous engagement and really uplifting communities. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (01:47.514) 

That’s amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and you do have a really diverse portfolio. That’s why I was excited to talk to you today too with the community planning, the HR, First Nations housing, like you probably have such an interesting lens on the landscape. So, I can’t wait to hear more about that today. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (02:04.952) 

Definitely. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (02:06.542) 

So we’re based here in Waterloo region in Ontario. It’s about an hour from Toronto. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about affordable housing because in our region, there’s a real lack of affordable housing. And that combined with the cost of living crisis is making it increasingly difficult for women who are experiencing domestic violence. 

And it’s even more challenging for women who are moving out of emergency shelters into longer term housing. And I know just for women in general who are vulnerable and seeking safe places to stay. So with your experience in the housing sector, I was just curious, you know, is this something that you’re seeing right now? What does it look like there? 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (02:34.444) 

Mm-hmm. Yes, definitely. This is a critical issue that I encounter regularly, both professionally, personally within community. And I would say that the intersection of the housing crisis, the systemic barriers, and the cost of living crisis disproportionately affects Indigenous women most particularly. And I feel that affordable and culturally appropriate housing options are scarce. 

And making transitions from emergency shelters to long-term shelters is extremely difficult. Recognizing the limitations, the barriers, the lack of like wraparound supports and services is because it’s not holistic or interconnected. And this like further compounds the issue because as housing without access to community, mental health services, culture leads to instability.  

And so, for me, I found over the years that this issue like increasing or becoming more apparent. And I feel like when talking about this issue, I just, my heart goes to individuals and families, because I feel like we all know someone who may be affected by this. And I would say that most people are maybe one or two paychecks away from housing instability or one bad accident or scenario, whether it’s like a disaster or a health issue or needing to support a family member or a parent. Like it just, these things I think happen more often than not. So how is, how as a community can we work towards striving towards solutions? 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (04:31.67) 

Yeah, I think that’s so true and so important. I think there’s so many layers to it too, right? I mean, it’s difficult for women. It’s difficult for women experiencing domestic violence. It’s even more difficult for Indigenous women and then Indigenous women compounding the domestic violence there too. So like you said, and I just think it’s so important, like you said, the access to mental health support, whether it’s addiction support, to culture too, all these things are necessary and they can’t be in silos, right? We need to look at them all together. I wanted to ask you, you touched on a little bit, but just more specifically, I was wondering about the intersection of gender-based violence and indigeneity. How do you think this compounds to make it even more difficult for women securing housing? 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (05:00.512) 

No, definitely. 

Yeah, I, so when I was in my graduate studies, this was something of big interest for me because, again, my worldview is to be able to speak from my own experience and my own experience being a young mom, being a young Indigenous woman, navigating career post-secondary studies. I believe the lived experience propelled me to being like, why is it like this? Like, why do I have a different experience than my peers, my colleagues? These are beautiful houses and homes and vacations. And me, this is a new chartered territory. And big reports like, you know, centering around missing, murdered, Indigenous women, the calls to justice. Here in BC, we have the Red Women Rising Report, which talks about the downtown Eastside. 

 And the richness in recognizing that Indigenous women face unique challenges due to historic and systemic inequities about what women could do or couldn’t do, how they had status or no status, access to culture and community, and what happened if you lost your status or maybe those connections to community, again, segregates you. And so these inequities are rooted in colonialism, racism, and the patriarchy. 

 And those are big words. And I think there’s more like really deeply rooted policies about like voting, education, health care, and all of these areas. And so therefore, gender-based violence, I feel, intersects with these housing insecurity for women, which amplify discrimination because we hold on to these norms, policies, stereotypes, and they perpetuate harm. And the lack of understanding 

 And I will admit, like sometimes these are just so broad where folks, it’s a lot to grapple, but this has been happening for so long and they become socialized as normal. And so I’ve seen cases where women are hesitant to seek help due to fear and fear of maybe not fitting the norms, fear of potentially, y’know, stepping too far into the light of like, you know, am I a good mother? Am I a good woman? Am I a good parent? Like it’s, just, there’s so much to unpack and there’s mistrust. And so how do you seek help and support when there’s historical mistrust as well? So I think there’s so many aspects which have caused marginalization. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (07:57.794) 

Yeah, I think that’s so important. Glad you touched on that. And I think even though those are big words, colonization, the patriarchy, I don’t think we can talk about gender-based violence without talking about it, especially when we’re talking about violence against Indigenous women. So I’m really glad you bring it up because even though they’re big terms and big concepts to unpack, I just, I think it’s true. We can’t talk about the issue without breaking it down and talking about those things. And it makes me think too, you you said a bit about your experience and you look around at your peers and why is it different? And to me, it makes me think too, like, who were these services and who are all these things built for and who’s missing, right? And I feel like for so long, that wasn’t questioned. And it’s led to all these problems. Now we need to deal with them. So that’s what makes me think of.  

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (08:46.926) 

100%. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (08:54.374) 

Now, I know you do really interesting work when it comes to connection and community. I’m wondering first, before I get into some more questions, could you tell us a little bit more about your work? It’s so interesting, all your background. I’m curious kind of what you do in the housing sector, how you use your HR background, if you don’t mind me asking. 

 

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (09:10.786) 

Yeah, definitely. So I work at BC Housing as a Senior Strategic Advisor. I, in this space, have worked primarily within the equity and reconciliation realm. given the complexity of the systemic and the lack of inclusion, most of my work is about promoting inclusion. Connection and community are foundational to my work. My HR background has enabled me to introduce culturally safe in trauma and foreign practices into the workplace to cultivate Indigenous recognition and engagement amongst staff to have mentorship, leadership.  

And I also teach at Vancouver Island University, teaching Indigenous planning. And that is a complex space where I feel like we need to go so much further than we are now because the construct of land, the construct of housing it’s a whole paradigm shift because the indigenous paradigm is not about ownership control economic benefits and capitalism We’re really the worldview of housing of what I see and experience a community is that community usually opts for a housing for all which is so contradicting to Okay, how much is the infrastructure? How much are the units? How much is this and like, you know adding a dollar to it. 

So for me, I feel that my work centers around cultural humility, training, inclusive leadership, because I feel that Indigenous equity and reconciliation equity lead to equity for all, because it’s about recognizing we’re all Indigenous from these lands. We all exist because each other exists. And so when we link arms and work in harmony, I feel like it would lead to better outcomes. 

But I feel like what dominates society is this scarcity mindset where like, if I give something for you, it means less for me. But like, what if we put our heads together and maximize outcomes for both? I know it’s a bit lofty and philosophical, but for me, I’ve just worked on really great projects of, you know, listening to others. What does reconciliation mean for you? Inviting conversation, exploration. And what I learned through that is that we all want belonging. We all want connection. We all want community.  

And so, how do we get there where taking care of our neighbours and learning about our neighbours then leads to like, sure, no problem. You can have X, Y, Z or let’s do this agreement, right? So it’s like learning about each other a bit more. And so it’s a unique space in which I operate, but I really enjoy it through knowledge sharing, collaboration and conversation. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (11:58.444) 

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It’s interesting to hear about. And I think it’s so true, like what you say about belonging and connection to the more you know, a person, I think a lot, it’s a lot more difficult than to blame them for something or not care about what they’re going through. Right. Whereas if you see them as the other and it’s like, them, they’re taking this from me and that from me, you know, it’s easy to not care. But the more we’re connected, it’s like, I care about that person. And I care about all the people they care about. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (12:12.928) 

Yes. So easy. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (12:26.926) 

So how can we fix this? So I think that’s such a good point. And it reminds me, it’s funny because we live so far apart. You’re in BC, I’m here in Ontario. But in our region, have, you know, our region in Waterloo is working towards similar things when it comes to equity. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (12:35.767) 

Yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (12:44.66) 

and reconciliation. And we had someone really interesting on the podcast last season, Stephanie, and she worked at the region. She’s an Indigenous woman. And she’s in, you know, kind of a similar role to you, where she’s like a consultant, and she’s working on equity and reconciliation within our region, really trying to bring in Indigenous practices. And one thing that stood out to me, it may just sound a bit random, but to me, it was a cool, concrete way we can start kind of 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (12:54.465) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (13:14.358) 

working towards reconciliation and building relationships and bringing in Indigenous identities was, you know, a few years ago Stephanie was telling us that in region buildings in our city, you know, they went had to go through like a long practice to do any sort of smudging. It might not be allowed in the buildings, you know, if you did you’d get permission like a week in advance and go through all these people. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (13:32.11) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (13:41.518) 

And she said, you know, it’s just really not welcoming for Indigenous people like myself. Like we like to smudge at the beginning of something. So now it’s really cool in region buildings. They can kind of just go about that. You know, the fire alarms are going to go off. They’re going to, you know, be prepared for it. And to me, that’s just it’s one small, small step. There’s a lot more that needs to happen. But it’s a cool example of how if we just listen to other people and what’s important to them, we can start advancing some of this. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (14:10.542) 

Totally. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (14:11.406) 

Have you had any examples of things like that? Sorry, I’m kind of just throwing throwing questions at you. But is there anything like that? Like any concrete examples in your work that remind you of something similar like that? Like small steps we can take because I just curious for our listeners to I know it can be hard when we’re talking about these big words and concepts. But I think if we break it down to manageable steps, it’s a lot easier to understand and to want to work towards. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (14:39.67) 

Yeah, I feel like this is, I will admit it is challenging, but also at times where some folks who are really along on their journey, it’s intuitive, right? And there’s a way to do the work in a good way, right? And I feel like, and there’s no check box, I guess. And so I say that with hesitance because I know sometimes we’re so early on the journey and so concrete practices. I’m just always going to be a big advocate for first looking at a space. Is it culturally safe? Can we have these conversations or do they perpetuate harm? And so I know we want to rush to the outcomes and the actions, but sometimes our spaces are just not safe, right?  

Again, if you have only a few Indigenous employees, it’s going to be challenged to ask those hard questions or it is going to be challenging to ensure that they feel seen, or valid because maybe they’re one person in a room of like hundreds, right? So how do you invite conversation?  

But for me, what I’ve experienced in my work is when we do have guest speakers coming in talking about culturally safe or trauma-informed practices, I’m like, pause, wait, let’s bring them into our Indigenous Employee Resource Group and the Indigenous Resource Group employees get a dedicated conversation to them talking about the resilience, the wellness, the self-care, because their experience is different from what non-Indigenous folks need to learn or know. And through those lectures and conversations or workshops, you’re talking about the systemic inequities. And as an Indigenous person, I’m like, I already know, I live this. Why do I need to sit in a one and a half hour workshop? 

And so those like a small little pivot, but I feel like it had a really great impact. So instead of talking about the Indian act and you know, the over-representation, we’re talking about like, so what do you do to feel motivated? How do you prevent burnout? You know, how do we cultivate wellness amongst ourselves? And it’s like those small pivots where it’s like, you kind of feel refreshed and it’s about that reciprocity. 

 And I think that’s something I’m striving for in the new year is like, how do we have reciprocity rooted in all that we do? Because again, sometimes we continue extractive tokenization approaches. So how are we giving back to Indigenous communities so they’re not getting burned out, fatigued? Y’know, again, we’re seeing these same messages for so long. Like there’s tons of books, there’s tons of information. 

So like, let’s do the work and then find ways to link arms and work in partnership. And I’m a big advocate for inviting in elders, inviting in youth, because that gives us the past, the present, and the future. And so how can we create solutions that are sustainable and long-term? And their voices are critical to most conversations while they’re talking about a housing, a program, a policy or youth initiative or like a community garden. It’s like those initiatives, you get a balanced perspective, more outcomes, many hands make light work. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (17:57.166) 

Yeah, no, I love that. And I think kind of breaking it down and simplifying it, like you say, too, it’s it’s really starting off just kind of asking these questions and getting input from the right people. Like you say, we always want to jump to the action. That’s our, you know, the way we are. But like, we got to break it down and figure out how to get there first. So I think that’s a really important point that you make. And it makes me think of, know, on this 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (18:12.814) 

Totally. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (18:24.59) 

indigenous series here that we have, which we’ve been talking to so many cool women. It’s been amazing. And, you know, I work at Women’s Crisis Services. It’s an emergency shelter and we have transitional house. And we spoke to someone else named Destiny and she runs kind of like an indigenous version of our services an hour or so from here.  

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (18:31.736) 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (18:51.298) 

And we learned, we kind of talked about the differences in our practices and why it’s so important to have culture embedded into these services for Indigenous women too. And Destiny had so many great ideas and once someone asked her, what should we do, she was able to implement all these changes into the transitional house that they have. And it made a really big impact for the women there. So it just reminds me of what you’re saying. We gotta ask people these questions because they can lead to really great outcomes just asking what’s important to you. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (18:55.65) 

Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (19:18.114) 

And it’s so simple. While we’re on the topic of domestic violence and gender-based violence, again, actually, I did want to ask too, since that’s really what She Is Your Neighbor is all about, it’s all about being better neighbors to women, children experiencing domestic violence. I’m curious if you know of anyone who has experienced this, if you encounter through your work or otherwise, if there’s any stories you’d be willing to share. 

 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (19:19.38) 

Yeah, definitely.  

Yeah, I feel like the gender-based violence again is more prevalent than not, especially within Indigenous communities. I feel that systemically we’ve normalized this and there’s this really great book I’m reading is Making Space for Indigenous Feminism. And there’s such richness. I’m reading the third edition and I’ve read the second edition. 

But this one author, and it’s completely slipping my mind, talks about gender-based violence, of how we normalize the harm and that we recognize that we all have a relative who may be perpetuating harm. But it’s, again, the interwoven values of we care for our family, we care for our relatives. So it’s like, how do you acknowledge the complexity or the competing truths of what is happening because I feel that indigenous men are also battling identity. What does it mean to be an indigenous man? And as a mom of two boys, there’s so many expectations of men being strong, the masculinity that we see in Western culture, but also like what’s the place within indigenous culture? Like our men support indigenous women. traditionally like a like a matriarch kind of society. And so I feel like there’s so many different things.  

And so, when you enter the Western world, men are like, I’m dominant, I can tell you what to do. And this is, you know, masculinity. And then, you know, at home, it’s like, well, no. And so it just, you know, again, and then the inequities that are compounding, you know, housing instability, you can’t leave relationships because you need housing, you can’t leave relationships because you don’t have income, or maybe you’ve spent time and you didn’t go to school.  

And so it’s like, how do we create spaces for this and I’ve had you know several relatives which is so unfortunate who’ve been in some situation or another and I can probably have an auntie or cousin who can share their story and you know I’ve experienced gender-based violence I’m you know on the journey of unpacking it and I will admit I’m a bit private about it because it’s like how can I be a woman of leadership and you know educated in a background and being like, yeah, but I’ve experienced this. And so I feel like I’m unpacking the biases of what does it mean? But I feel like I found healing in the hurt and purpose in the pain to saying no, and to really work on my own mindset of like, I’m strong, I’m resilient, I’m brilliant. And I know it sounds a bit… 

 fluffy and that self-awareness, but a part of me is like we do need to like rewire our brain and mindset. So I’d be on a walk being like, I’m brilliant, I’m strong, I’m capable, because I feel like so much in society tells us that we’re not good enough, that we need to do more, that we need to work harder, we need to be present for others. And so for me, it’s recognizing you can be a good mom, you can go after your career, and you can be an individual. And I know for many of those may not coexist, but for me,they can, and I feel like it’s finding your people and really just listening to your intuition of who you want to be. And no one’s gonna tell you, it’s your intuition and protecting that fiercely because you know who you are meant to be and who you want to be. And that’s what I’ve held onto and kind of kept it safe. And there’s times where I was so lonely or I felt like the world was against me or I didn’t know how to exist in this world. 

But then those are seasons and seasons end. Sometimes they’re a bit longer here in BC. There’s still snow in February, but like those seasons cycle through. And so, you know, hold on, it’s not forever. You find support and find resources. And there’s times where I’ve had to advocate where I felt like I was in crisis and I was supposed to get a phone call from a supportive provider, didn’t get a phone call. So was like, hello, like, can I get some support?  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (23:38.402) 

Yeah. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (24:01.282) 

Like I need to help navigate. And they’re like, you didn’t get a call? And I’m like, no, I didn’t. So, it’s like, you need to be your own advocate and to just say, wake up, I’m just going to do this. Right. Because I feel like it’s far like I feel like women are just too brilliant and too powerful to just sit back. And I just I my aspirations for each woman, individual person, man, to really cultivate and being like, no, I’m going to be who I’m meant to be. And I’m going to show up as that day in and day out. So I find magic in that. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (24:30.104) 

Thank you so much for sharing that. I love your perspective of that. And I think it’s so true. think so many of us have experienced gender-based violence, whether it’s domestic violence or a different form of it. And I think it is such a personal journey to kind of work through too, especially when we live in a world, you know, where women are often portrayed as weak, especially women experiencing domestic violence. And that’s something with this podcast, we really try and challenge.  

We really like to get photos of all of our guests and showing them, you know, in colour, showing their name, showing their face, showing that they’re strong and brave and trying to combat some of these images that we sometimes see in the media. Our team always talks about such a pet peeve of ours whenever we see an article about intimate partner violence. And it’s the stock image of the woman crying in the shadows and so weak. like, this is not the women we see coming out of our emergency shelters. We see brave, strong women who, like you said, have to advocate for themselves for services because unfortunately, there’s not enough services to go around. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (25:11.928) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

   

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (25:34.472) 

There’s not enough funding to fund the services. So then it falls on the person who’s experiencing it. And I think you’re right. Women are so strong and brave and resilient. All the words you said, I loved all those. I want to get those and put them on my mirror, my daughter’s mirror, you know? Because I think they’re good. got it. Yeah, we need to say those things to ourselves because sometimes nobody else will in this world, right? So yeah. 

 

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (25:36.394) 

No. No. Yeah. Great mantra. Exactly. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (26:03.318) 

So, thanks for sharing that. And yeah, there’s just a couple tidbits you said that finding healing in the hurt and purpose in the pain. really, I love that. I think that’s such a cool takeaway. And for people listening, I think they’ll be really motivating. So thank you for sharing that. 

I also wanted to ask you a little bit about, you know, we’ve been talking about decolonizing different spaces. We’ve been talking about connection and community. And I was wondering how you think we can use connection and community to further decolonize our spaces and make them safer for Indigenous women. We’ve talked about this a bit already, but I’m wondering if you have further thoughts on that. 

 

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (26:45.186) 

Yeah, I feel like decolonization again is such a big construct and I feel like it’s woven into all that we do. For me, it’s restoring relationships with the land, with our culture, with community and with each other and the connection and community challenge. community challenges the individualistic and hierarchical models that dominate Western institutions. 

  

And so by centering, I would say Indigenous ways of knowing, and again, we’re all indigenous to these lands one way or another, is that we create spaces where we recognize that sometimes things are imperfect. So I’m an indigenous beater too, and so we’re taught culturally, like beaded work, we strive for perfection at times.  

We want it to look absolutely perfect, because that’s what we see if it’s the threads are frayed or if the beads off, it won’t be good. And that’s what society teaches us, that it needs to be perfect, or you might just return it back and go back to what we do with clothing stores. We return it and saying like, this is not the buttons off, can I get a discount? So we’re socialized for the perfection. But Indigenous beading, it’s not meant to look perfect. It’s meant to mimic and near the land. The land is imperfect. We’re all unique and distinct, and indigenous knowledge is place-based. 

And so what if we were to recognize each place, each nation, each community, each individual, and not have these copy paste frameworks? So, I always like to lead into it’s not a checklist, it’s not a guidebook, it’s not the rule or law, but rather a recipe. Let’s have some foundational tools of like, you know, and it’s about making it your own. Some people love nuts, some people are gluten free, some people want to use alternative things like by all means. 

And so it’s like the recipe of culturally safe practices, elevating indigenous voices to invite a new way of thinking, to weave together Western and indigenous knowledges and striving to dismantle oppressive systems. Because again, I feel like we’ve all been oppressed in one way or another, but like, how do we just like link arms and being like, actually, let’s create a better future for generations to come for our grandchildren, our great grandchildren, our nieces, our nephews, our friends, or like, are all our relations, right? So to ensure that most particularly Indigenous women feel seen, feel heard, feel valued, and those are big things. And I feel like we can ideally hopefully say that within community and within the organizations that we work for as well. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (29:27.022) 

Yeah, I love that. Thank you. for anybody listening and who can’t see the visual right now, I just want to point out that Qwuy’um’aat is wearing really beautifully beaded earrings. So they’re really nice. Did you make them yourself? 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (29:32.461) 

Yeah. Yeah, thank you. These ones, no, I do different style, but I always love supporting other artists. And it’s just, it’s a humble reminder, again, like the teachings through art and craft. And it just reminds me of like those small things. And so it’s really nice that I actually remember that as well. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (29:55.926) 

Yeah, no, I love it. And I think it just gives a visual to it. Like an interesting concept, and I think an important concept, you know, we are socialized to expect perfection, whether it’s within ourselves, within others. And I think the calm, the, you know, the concept of imperfection, I think that’s something we do need to embrace a little bit more. And especially this idea of a recipe. I love that. It’s not, you know, instead of trying to, you know, have the end result, we’re all going to make this cake. It’s like, here’s your, your suggested recipe. Do what you will. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (30:07.726) 

100%. Thank you. Yeah.  

And that’s coming from like a mom who is constantly like, shoot, I’m out of butter. shoot, like I don’t have eggs. So you’re like working to substitute, okay, I have applesauce or I have this, I have a banana. Let’s see how this works out. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (30:42.528) 

Yeah, well, and I think it’s true even like when you talk about even in the beadwork as an example, too, I think, you know, I think we all have imperfections and it makes us unique and different and interesting. I think that’s the same with the beadwork. And I think, you know, it’s we don’t want everything to be cookie cutter all the time. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (30:55.502) 

Mm. No, no. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (31:01.454) 

So, I think that that’s a really, really important point. And just having the visual of the earrings, I think helps drive it home even more. So sorry for the listeners who can’t see you, but we can. I also wanted to ask just simply why this conversation is important to you, Qwuy’um’aat. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott t (31:07.438) 

Yeah. Yeah. For me, this conversation is personal and it’s professional. As an Indigenous woman, I’ve navigated many spaces where my identity was seen as a source of strength and resilience, but also vulnerability. And I feel like that duality can exist because I feel like my leadership is fiercely resilient, but also… 

The imposter syndrome is real where I’m like, boy, am I just this emotional passionate person? But also I feel like in those moments I’m reminded like, you my ancestors are behind me. This is charting a new path forward for generations to come. This is giving voice to those who maybe have not been heard. so advocating for safer, more inclusive environments is not just part of my work. It’s my responsibility. I carry that responsibility with such integrity and it really is the propelling factor on how I approach my work for my community, for my children, and for generations to come. And that’s just really what gets me out of my bed every day. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (32:31.942) 

I love that. I’m not surprised. Another part of She Is Your Neighbour, it’s all about encouraging our communities to be good neighbours to women and children experiencing domestic violence, and in this case, Indigenous women specifically. So I’m wondering how you think we can all be better neighbours to Indigenous women and children experiencing gender-based violence. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (32:55.998) 

As an Indigenous planner, this question just like fires me up because I do think about it from like a community planning and also a municipal First Nations government lens because being a good neighbour is showing up with empathy, not judgment, not preconceived notions, not with expectations or an agenda. I mean, you may have an agenda, but rather of like, open your heart, open your mind. And elders within my couch and community always share the greatest journey one will ever take is from their head to their heart. So again, working with open hearts, open minds, open spirit, it’s about listening again without those assumptions, advocating for systemic change. We don’t have the solutions.  

As I tell folks in my organization, we are flying the plane and building the plane at the same time. So we’re about to take off, we’re going, this pilot project is happening, but we don’t have a user guide or a manual because we’re dismantling years of systemic inequities and harms and we’re doing something different. And so it’s about challenging the biases that we see in our communities. And I will admit, I’ve kind of wrote a big, you know, the HR and planner and me just kind of wrote out some biases on my LinkedIn because I just, it’s so often where it’s like, hold on, wait, wait, wait, that’s stereotype or that’s a bias, how do we flip it? How do we just see the other side of the coin? And for Indigenous women and girls it’s about recognizing the impact of colonialism and working to create culturally safe and supportive environments. And I think again we kind of talked at the onset is like these spaces were created for people not with people.  

So how do we shift the for about and include with and that’s the thing we I think need to consider. It’s not about right or wrong, it’s not about black or white, it’s about occupying a new space, the gray zone or the gray space in which I call it and like you know co-creating and I feel like that’s the era that we’re in is that co-creation, collaboration, self-determination and it’s not about the hierarchy or like those types of things.  

It’s really about like, let’s meet each other halfway. And like, for me, it’s about agreeing potentially to work on issues that are so much bigger than ourselves. And at the start of the call, we were like talking about, you know, the instability, the expensive, the inflation and the housing and all of these system things. Those are issues so much beyond ourselves. And I think only through, you know, showing up with empathy and, you know, learning about being a good neighbor is that we can actually tackle these challenges. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (35:37.792) 

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. One more follow up question before we go. You mentioned, you know, on your LinkedIn, you had shared some different biases and stereotypes. And I’m wondering if you would mind just sharing a few examples here just for our listeners to make it a little more concrete. And if there’s something that maybe they’ve heard, I’d like to debunk it here too, while they’re listening. 

 

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (36:01.706) 

Yeah, okay, so it’s been some time, so let me have a think. So I think for me, what’s coming to mind, so unpacking stereotypes and challenges. So I feel like, again, there’s not a single Indigenous culture, right? Again, we talk about Indigenous like it’s this one thing, there’s multiple. So there’s bias, I think, in the way that sometimes we assume all Indigenous communities have the same practices. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (36:20.738) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (36:28.13) 

Here in BC, we have over 200 nations, and so we need to recognize that they are distinct and self-determining. I also feel like there’s a bias in terms of thinking we are people of the past, that we want to introduce things of like living in long houses again, or pit houses, or teepees. No, no, no, like we’re modern savvy people. I’m on a savvy house with maybe like a jet tub or like this. Like we can be people of the present. 

And then I think a big one, especially in the housing realm, is that we victimize Indigenous folks. As a matter of fact, it’s that Indigenous folks are key players in economic development, in supportive housing, in really taking that leadership role, is that there are systemic barriers preventing economic sufficiency, leadership, education, workforce things. And so that really diminishes leadership and those types of things. 

I feel like there’s also like romanticizing Indigenous culture that we think that they’re perfect societies that had no conflict. Of course, we had conflict, had wars, but rather of like, so I feel like those generalizations really through media, through movies, through those types of things, we kind of have these assumptions. And I think there’s probably so many other ones that are not coming to mind right now, but those are the ones that are coming to mind. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (37:51.938) 

Yeah, thank you. Really appreciate you sharing those, think it’s so important to kind of break that down and even just a few tidbits for people to take away. I really appreciate your insights today. And yeah, just so grateful for you being here. Thank you so much, Qwuy’um’aat. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (38:05.87) 

Yeah, thank you. It was a delight to connect and have chat, chat and making space for this important conversation. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (38:11.758) 

Yeah, I’m so glad we got to. Thanks again. 

  

Qwuy’um’aat Elliott (38:14.574) 

Thank you. 

 

 

Breaking the Cycle of Intergenerational Trauma with Serena Wesley

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:01.247) 

Hi, Serena. Thank you so much for being here today. Oh, I’m so excited to speak with you today. We’ve been really looking forward to this conversation. So yeah, I’m just grateful you can be here and we can get chatting. So can you start by just sharing a little bit about yourself for those who are listening? 

  

Serena Wesley (00:04.434) 

Thank you for having me. So my name is Serena. I am Ojibwe from the Sagin First Nation. I’m part of the Bear Clan. My Indigenous name is Gijip Nangoh, which is Little Morning Star. And I work at Healing of the Seven Generations. I’m the program manager slash Veil Supervision in the Desha Chandra program here. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (00:43.431) 

Awesome, thank you for that. I’m also wondering if you could share a little bit more about some of the work that Healing of the Seven Generations does here in our community. 

  

Serena Wesley (00:55.822) 

So we have, I mean there’s no way I’m to have enough time to talk about everything that we do. We have probably close to like 20 different programs that we run out of our organization. We’re a non-for-profit organization so everything we do is, you know, we have to get grants and stuff like that for. So we have like a youth program where we have a camp in the summertime. We have the backpack program through that. In the summertime we have a canoe day with the justice system where we try to rebuild those bridges between the justice system and the youth. So the youth don’t always look at the justice system in a negative way. So we invite justices, lawyers, correctional officers, police officers, and they’re in plain clothes and they’ll go out in a canoe with the youth. We pair them up and it’s a full day. It’s a really good day.  

We have our youth conference that we do as well too, which is usually a two day and we have a bunch of that we run through that and speakers and stuff like that and that’s free to all youth to attend. We have our Women’s Circle and I advocate for that hugely. You don’t have to be Indigenous to attend. It’s every Wednesday night and it’s just a good place for women to come together and you know talk about what’s going on in their lives, what’s bothering them and it brings, it kind of gives them a little bit to you know… peace to their soul to see that there are other women kind of going through the same thing they’re going through. So it really does help them. Every Wednesday we have our community lunch. So everybody from the community is welcome to come to the building and enjoy lunch that staff or a community member has made.  

We have, gosh, we have traditional counseling through Dono Dube and we also partner with Louise Byrne. She’s a psychotherapist. 

We work with a lot of people in the community to try to get them into healing lodges when they’re struggling. I mean, the healing lodges, cover trauma, they cover addictions. We have a couple of places that we’ll take families in and work with them to try to rebuild those relationships. We really do try to advocate for our healing lodges because we find that the mainstream doesn’t really work for our people. Where the healing lodges, they try to work on what broke you and giving you those skills to be able to move forward and to possibly you know work on your healing journey. Usually we look at it like… 

It takes probably about seven healing lodges before you can even really start healing because it’s that it just takes time. So four weeks isn’t going to fix what broke you, but it’s a start. As opposed to putting a Band-Aid on it, it’s trying to fix it. And Skyla and I, we run the court support program, that’s something we work with our people for and we also go to court. We’re both Gladue certified, so we write a lot of Gladue letters to try to support our people and try to get them out on bail into our bail program if we can, if they fall into what we need them to have to come into it. Because we get no government funding through that, so we just run that through the Desha Chandra program. 

We work alongside family and children services. So we get called out if there is a file that’s supposed to be opened and they’re Indigenous, we’re called out to try to build a family panel as opposed to going to the route of apprehension. We don’t want our children to be in the system if we can avoid it. So we look at the best way, the safest way to make sure children are in a safe place. And that may still be with their parents but giving the parents the skills and the resources to be able to fix what’s going on in the family at that time. There’s a lot more but I can’t think of everything at the top of my head. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (05:21.681) 

No, that’s amazing. Thank you so much. That was a great overview. Yeah, there’s a few things that stuck out to me there. Your work with Family and Children’s Services, I’ve heard a bit about. We had Stephanie on a previous episode of the podcast and she talked a lot about the work she was doing or she had done there and then now as part of the board was doing. So that was really cool to learn about. 

  

Serena Wesley (05:34.936) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (05:45.707) 

And I think really important work, so I’m so glad to hear about your partnership with F&CS and how that works. The other thing I wanted to comment on was your healing lodges. That’s so interesting to me and that’s something I’ve been really learning through this series is a lot of the time Indigenous people, it’s really important for them to have their culture surrounding them when they’re healing and that really needs to be a part of their healing journey. So, when you said that mainstream approaches don’t always work, that kind of clicked with me that that’s, you know, what everybody I’ve been speaking to is said to be true. I was wondering if you’re able to elaborate a little more on the healing lodges, like if that is a little more you can share about. 

  

Serena Wesley (06:26.766) 

Yeah, so I mean the closest healing lodge we have to us is the one in Brantford. Unfortunately, I mean every healing lodge has a huge waiting list. So, generally when we’re sending people to healing lodges, it’s far away. It’s five or more hours away. We do have a youth one in London, but these places you go there, they focus on what you need to work on, but they also focus on the cultural part of it. So, you know, you may go there, you may get your Indigenous name, you may learn how to make a ribbon shirt or a ribbon skirt. You know, you get to learn those stories, you get to meet with elders, you get to learn, you know, how we did things and how we walk in a good way and how our culture does that. Because we have so many people that come into our building that know nothing about who they are because they were either part of you know, residential school system or they were part of the 60s scoop, just knew they were indigenous, but knew nothing about it. And they really… 

 You know, find that missing piece of themselves when they can start getting back into culture and just finding that piece that’s always been missing. And they didn’t know it was missing. They didn’t know that’s what was kind of missing from their life. You know, learning about our medicines. Why do we smudge, you know, every day? Why do we, you know, do sweat lodges? Why do we do ceremonies? Like what they mean and, you know, our stories and stuff like that. It’s just it is healing is a part of the healing and, you know, healing of seven generations tries to, you know, we try to help as best we can. We won’t do the work for people, but we will help you walk your journey. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (08:10.707) 

Yeah, I love that. I could see why you would feel like you have a missing part of you and why that would be so empowering once you kind of get that piece back and realize what it means to you and your story. So I think that’s really cool. It’s too bad to hear that the healing lodges are so far away though and difficult to access with the waiting list because it sounds like having those more accessible would definitely be a good thing. 

  

Serena Wesley (08:35.15) 

yes, yes it would be. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (08:39.005) 

I also wanted to ask you about yourself and your personal story. I know we’ve talked a little about this, but I wonder if you’d be willing to share a little bit about yourself personally and your story. 

 

Serena Wesley (08:55.0) 

So my mom raised me here in Kitchener. I didn’t find out until the 215 fire, but she attended day school and my grandparents went to the Spanish residential school. I had no idea. My mom was murdered when I was nine years old by her live-in boyfriend at the time. 

 You know, I’ve always known I was Indigenous. Like I’ve been status since I was younger. I always thought I knew about my culture. And during the 215, just being here at Healing of the Seven Generations, I was a fire keeper and became close with the staff here. And they told me to apply and I did. And I was able to get a job here and just coming in and continuing to learn about like ceremonies and the stories, I came to realize how much I didn’t know about my culture. And I thrive in learning about it. Anything I can learn, I try to share it with people and bring it forward. My mom always said she never wanted me to have her life. That’s why she raised us here in Kitchener. And I never understood that until the 215 because… 

You know, she went to day school and the last one closed in 96 while I was born in 77. So I potentially could have went to a day school, you know, so I’m thinking she was trying to protect me from that. She didn’t want me to have the life that she had while she had it. So, you know, I’m thankful she did that for me. But, you know, we were in the foster system for a tiny bit and we went to live with family. But we were, you know, we were in an abusive situation after my mom died with a family member. And then we went to the foster system and then another family member took us and that’s where we were raised.  

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (10:53.087) 

Thank you for sharing that. I’m sure it’s difficult to talk about even all these years later, but I do really appreciate it. I was wondering if for any listeners who aren’t familiar with it, could you elaborate on what a day school is? 

  

Serena Wesley (11:08.322) 

So, they had the residential schools and it was a kind of a playoff of the residential school. So, these ones weren’t where you had to go and stay there. So, they sent the children there. They were still run by the churches and stuff like that. But you only had to go, they were closer to the reservations and you went there for the day and then you came home. But they were still treated the same. They were in the residential school systems. A lot of things happened, you know. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (11:33.619) 

Yeah, terrible things. And with your mom, I’m so sorry to learn about what happened to your mom. So obviously it was an act of femicide and it was an act of gender-based violence as I understand it too, is that right? 

  

Serena Wesley (11:48.278) 

Yeah, I mean, my mom did the best she had me when she was young. She was 17 when she had me and she did her best. My grandmother helped raise me. I was a grandma’s girl and but she I remember like my brother’s dad. We have different fathers. Their relationship was abusive as well to both ways. You know, I mean, I have so many stories. We don’t have enough time, but I could tell you so many stories that you’d be like, my God, you know, and then. 

She got into the relationship with this gentleman and there was abuse there as well. It was hidden more than it was with my brother’s dad. But it’s, you know, it’s a cycle. That’s all she knew. Her father was abusive and very abusive. And he passed away around the time I was born. So I never really knew my grandfather. But, you know, I’ve heard stories and, you know, it’s just that’s what they knew. That’s what they were taught. That’s, know, in the schools, they weren’t taught how to live. like, you know, in schools now, they don’t teach you anything. They taught you hate. They taught you abuse. They taught you not to be, you know, that’s something you just learn, learn behavior. And it was a cycle and she stayed in that cycle. So and unfortunately, you know, it cost her her life. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (13:14.119) 

It’s terrible. Thank you for explaining that. And I’m imagining it really had an impact on your life and the work that you’ve chose to go into in the field. Is there anything about that you are open to sharing? 

  

Serena Wesley (13:28.622) 

You know, when I was little, I always said I wanted to be Wonder Woman. And I did go to school for policing. I just, I found myself in like security mostly after college. And I ended up here doing the job I do. And we are trying to help my people. 

 And I feel like that’s probably where Creator wanted me to be. This is job, I want to help people and I get to do that. But I also get to try to do that for our people as well too. So and you know, I have that understanding of where they’re coming from. You know, not all of our stories are the same, but they’re very similar. So, you know, it’s, I just want to help people and that’s, you know, what I do.  

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (14:14.751) 

Yeah, and I think it’s such important work. And I think working with someone who’s been through something similar to you, it’s just, there’s something different about it, right? When you feel that the person you’re working with understands your story and understands where you’re coming from. I know it’s just a different kind of connection. So I’m sure you provide that to so many people you support. So that’s wonderful. 

 I also want to talk a little bit about the intergenerational effects of the residential school system. So obviously this impacted your family. This has impacted so many families and it’s not right. But what I’ve been learning is that the use of traditional ceremonies and cultural teachings has really helps in terms of the healing. Is this something you found in your own life personally too? 

  

Serena Wesley (14:46.254) 

Mm-hmm. 

I actually do. I I was raised in the Catholic Church, you know, and I mean, that’s how the, you know, our people were taught. Like that’s, you know, you have to do the Bible and stuff like that. you know, over the last few years, and I don’t begrudge anybody their culture. You believe what you believe in, and if that gives you strength, you should believe in that. But I’ve come tomorrow to, you know, turn to our culture and our ceremonies when I need healing. 

And I’m still, like I said, still learn like every day. There are new things to learn, but I turn to my medicines when I need it. I turn to our stories. I turn to just our sacred fire. You put your worries and thoughts in there and the smoke takes it up to creator and you ask, you know, you ask for whatever it is you need to, you need help with at that time and I found it’s really helped me. And you know, like I said, I don’t regret anybody. If church works for you, then that works for you. You know, whatever you believe in, that’s everybody’s journey. 

 I have family members that still go to the church and stuff like that and believe in that and you know I’m happy that they believe in that but for me I find our way a lot more healing like I turned to the earth I turned to the water you know I turned to our stories and it does help me. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (16:38.067) 

Yeah, that’s so good to hear. I was raised in the Catholic Church as well and it’s not something I follow anymore. But again, I think to each their own, whatever works for somebody. But I do find it interesting, you know, along our lives and our journeys how when we learn about different parts of the world and what’s out there, we find different things that we gravitate to. And I think that’s really cool when we do have the opportunity to do that because we know not everybody has, especially when we think about the residential school system. 

 And what that was like. Not everyone has the opportunity that we have to be able to explore and to look into different cultures and different religions and different ways of doing things. So yeah, that kind of speaks to me a bit too, what you’re saying there. I’m sorry, I didn’t put this in the questions ahead of time, but I do have one more question that kind of on this topic. 

  

Serena Wesley (17:28.334) 

That’s it. Okay. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (17:33.673) 

I’ve been learning more about how a lot of Indigenous communities, you know, it’s a matriarchal society, which is really different, I think, every day about the patriarchy and how we live in it and how we need to combat it, you know? So I’m just wondering your thoughts on that type of matriarchal society. And do you kind of see differences in the Indigenous way of being and doing things because of that as opposed to, you know, more mainstream ways? 

  

Serena Wesley (18:03.854) 

Yeah, I mean, I’ve learned a little bit about other cultures and my nation as well, it’s, you know, we never, I mean, you always say you have a chief, right? But there was also, you know, the women were also in charge as well too, right? So can’t have one without the other. And you relied on your people of your community to come together and support each other and take care of each other. You know, we never turned our backs on anyone unless, like, I mean, not to say some people probably were exercise from certain communities, but it had to be serious and you just didn’t think you could help them and it was a safety concern for the rest of the community. But you you got to love whoever you wanted to love.  

You’re just a human being, know, nobody looked at you different and if you loved whoever you loved and you know, you were a part of that community. We built each other up. We never knocked each other down. You know, if someone was, you know, out hunting and they did really well, they would share that with the community, especially the people that maybe didn’t have such a good time in their hunting. I think like really everybody should just get back to that. Like we’re always, I find we’re always trying to tear each other down and that’s a colonial way of thinking. Why not try to build each other up as a community? 

 And help each other as opposed to turning your back or giving a dirty look or giving your judgments. We have no right to judge anybody because we don’t know what they’re going through, we don’t know their story. It’s just trying to help people. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (19:48.957) 

Yeah, I agree. And I think it makes me think of your women’s circle that you have too. I really liked the concept of that. And I know you said it was open to all, but is it for women who are going through something in particular or is it really open? 

  

Serena Wesley (20:02.356) 

No, everybody’s welcome to come. We have some people that come every week. We have some people that just come when they need it. We do have women from Grand Valley. They have guards that bring them and they attend as well too. It’s a safe place for people to be able to come to talk about what’s going on in their lives, bad or good. And then you eat and then we drum, sing some songs, we close off the night. So, you know, it’s very healing even if you don’t need the healing. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (20:44.701) 

Yeah, and I agree with you. I feel like we do need to get back to, you know, those community approaches to everything, but especially to healing. Because I think it’s one thing to try and heal on your own. But when you feel you’re with a group of people who’ve been through something you’ve been through, can be a little more powerful, I think, and easier to heal knowing there’s other people you can lean on and you don’t have it all on your own back. And it’s not all your own struggle. It’s something that other people are carrying too. Sometimes there’s something comforting in that I find. 

 Yeah, it’s just knowing you’re not alone, right? Like you’re not alone in the fight or the walk, but you have to take those steps too, or want to take those steps. you know, we’re here, we’re here to help. And that’s what we want to do in this building. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (21:19.443) 

Hmm. 

 Yeah. I also wanted to ask you, y’know, as a professional working in the social services, but also from your own experience as well, how do you think domestic violence and gender based violence impacts indigenous communities different than other communities? 

  

Serena Wesley (21:50.742) 

I mean… 

 It’s in the communities itself, like in our community, you know, we have it a lot, but and it seems like it’s not taken as seriously as it would be if you were non-Indigenous. 

 We have a lot of family members that, you know, they may not be with an Indigenous partner and I find that their charges or their protection isn’t taken as serious as maybe someone that’s non-Indigenous and we see it all the time. Like, it’s a… 

We have a lot of people and they think it’s okay, that’s the norm, because that’s what we were taught, right? We weren’t taught any different. So you’re in an abusive relationship, you stay because you think this is how my family was, this is how I am. And we’re all learning that no, that’s not the way and we’re trying to help them get out of those situations, try to avoid sex trafficking and try to avoid, know, try to teach them that no, that’s not normal. You’re better than that. You’re a better person than that. You deserve better than that. And that’s where it comes down to. We try to fix what’s broken them, put a bandaid on it. But it takes tiny steps and it takes a long time for that healing. So it’s something, and that’s why we’ve been here for over 20 years, you know, and we’ll continue to be here. So to help people. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (23:27.825) 

Yeah. And I know what the programs, I know you have so many programs at Healing of The Seven Generations, but for your programs, like for example, the youth program or when you go to the lodges, is there a time limit? I know you said like with the lodges, you might need seven sessions before you even get to start to get into a rhythm of it and start to begin that healing process. So I’m curious if your programs generally have a time limit or if they just follow a person’s journey. 

  

Serena Wesley (23:57.996) 

No, so it’s, so, a place like Rainbow Lodge, they’re four week sessions. So, it’s residential, so they would go there for four weeks and then they would come back and we’d have to either reapply for them potentially to go back there or to go to another healing lodge. And we have sent a few of our people to more than one different healing lodge because they all have their skills and they work on different things and different parts of culture. And I think it just gives that new fresh, you know, you’re not repeat not on repeats. It’s a whole different program.  

So I feel like it helps and it could be that little bit more Skills and coping mechanisms to be able to try to help yourself move forward So yeah, we it’s a process like the applications are a process You need to get medical you need to get you know There’s questionnaires and you got to get them filled out and then we got to get them sent in and there’s an interview process and like I said There’s waiting lists and it’s trying to find the right fit for each person to go to certain places and well you know keeping in mind their traumas and stuff like that. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (25:12.041) 

Yeah, that makes sense. When I think about your programs too, I just think how you have such a variety of programs, which is so wonderful. And one of the new ones is the child care centre that recently opened in the region. I have a two-year-old daughter, so I get all the emails about the different daycare centres and I got the email that that one was opening and I thought, this is so cool. Because it’s the first Indigenous child care centre in the region to my understanding. I wondered if you could share a bit more about that. 

  

Serena Wesley (25:37.218) 

Yes. 

Yeah, it’s, you know, I would like to take credit, but I there’s no credit to come my way in regards to the daycare. But I’m very proud of the employees that have had a part in getting that together and getting that, you know, opened and, you know, to have a place where we start our children from babies in their culture, it’s to try to break that, you know, start that seventh generation, to break that generational trauma where they learn from an early age and they know about our medicines, they know about our stories and they know about why we do certain things, they know the songs to the drum and just learning that gives them a little bit more skill to be make sure that they don’t follow and they break that cycle. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (26:30.269) 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, I imagine it must be pretty cool for parents as well, knowing you can send your kids to daycare from such an early age and they’re already going to be learning about their culture and their background. You know, it’s not all on the parents to do all that teaching. So I imagine that would be really a cool part of it too. 

  

Serena Wesley (26:48.544) 

Yeah, and I mean it’s a good opportunity too for even for the parents that haven’t had the culture to be able to maybe learn from their children as well too. Like look what I learned today, you know, this is a medicine pouch, this is why we wear it, this is what we put in it, this is what we use it for, you know, this is why we smudge, like we should smudge our house every day, you know.  

It’s seeing the light in the kids while they learn this stuff and even being able to teach that even to their parents that maybe don’t even know, it’s tremendous for our community because we’re starting early to try to prevent what we have to deal with every day and try to make sure they don’t fall on those same footsteps and try to break that cycle of the traumas of the residential schools and the 60s scoops. So, it’s so much credit to the employees that had a big part in that. It’s a very proud moment and hopefully that opens the door for maybe a school or maybe be another daycare. yeah, let’s fingers crossed that’s something we can do. 

  

 

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (27:55.763) 

Yeah, it’s so cool. I love even the thought of that, of the kids teaching the parents, like how amazing and healing it could be for a whole family. know, something you might not even think you get out of something as to someone who might seem as simple as a daycare, but it could really bring so much change into a family’s life. So I think it’s really cool. And I think when we think about schools and how we’re supporting our community through different resources like this, we got to think about things like that and think about culture and all the people we have who live here and who would benefit from what.  

So, I do think it’s a really cool endeavor too. And I’m glad you have been able to take it on. I also wanted to ask you, so part of She Is Your Neighbor is all about encouraging the community to be good neighbors, especially to women and children experiencing domestic violence. But in this case, I’d like to ask about indigenous women and families experiencing domestic violence. 

  

Serena Wesley (28:32.888) 

Mm-hmm. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (28:52.297) 

Wondering if you have any tips that you’d like to share how you think we can be better neighbours. 

  

Serena Wesley (28:58.126) 

You know, it’s…talking about it and getting it out there and getting stories out there and knowing you’re not alone. You’ve got to be able to support each other. if someone comes to you with something, take it serious. Give them resources. Send them here. Send them to Sask. Send them to any place that’s going to be able to help them to try to get out of the situation they’re in. We have to get out of the time where we’re told to keep quiet about things. about it and the more the information gets out there the more we can be able to provide more resources and be able to help you know men and women and two-spirit people that are in these situations to help them become safe to learn and to know that they’re worth not having that kind of life. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (29:49.119) 

Thank you so much and thank you for being here today. Is there anything else you wanted to add Serena before we go today? 

  

Serena Wesley 29:55.564) 

Not that I can pick up. Thank you. 

  

Jenna Mayne (she/her) (29:57.087) 

Okay, awesome. Thank you so much for being here.